[Continued

10 May, 1927.]

of this at all, on buildings? I think it is just a question of classification. If it is considered right, then, of course, it would be perfectly easy to put in such a note.

Major Salmon.

4004. But when you are considering the total expenditure on Northern Ireland that is part of the total expenditure? The total expenditure accruing to us, yes; but I should never look at the Estimates alone for that purpose.

4005. What would you look at?-You would have to have a special return on that particular point, because there are all sorts of transactions backwards and forwards.

4006. Of course, Northern Ireland is quite exceptional. That is an unfortunate example ?-It is a little difficult to explain that particular instance.

Sir Fredric Wise.

4007. Do the salaries of the Judges come under this particular Vote on page 273, Class II, Vote 40?-The Judges are paid by Northern Ireland, except the Appeal Court. They would not come in this; they would come under the Consolidated Fund. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) The Estimate for Class III, Vote 17, shows the cost of the Judges in a note.

4008. I am looking at the Vote for the Northern Ireland Services, page 273. You have County Courts, and Registry of Deeds, and so on, but there is nothing to show that the Judges do not come in this particular Vote. (Sir Otto Niemeyer.) But if you look at this White Paper, Class II, Vote 40, I think you will see that the Judges are included, because the first item is "Finance Accounts Consolidated Fund, £9,033." I have not looked it up, but I have no doubt that that first item is precisely what you were asking about.

4009. You get Northern Ireland Services on page 6 under Class II, Vote 40, and then you get Northern Ireland (Grants-in-aid) on page 12 under "Unclassified Services."

Major Salmon.

4010. Apparently you take the Northern Ireland Services under different Classes?—Yes.

4011. I suggest that it would be more convenient to the layman who is considering the whole of the Northern

Ireland Services if it were possible to have a Paper showing what was the total of the Northern Ireland Services under the different Classes?-I agree. The ordinary Northern Ireland Services, the things which go on, are shown in this Vote to which you are referring, but that particular year there was a special grant for special services which have now ceased. Speaking from memory, it was not put into the ordinary Vote simply to mark the fact that it was a special thing.

Sir Fredric Wise.

4012. Could not there be put on page 273 of the volume of Appropriation Accounts some note to the effect that for total expenditure you must look to this White Paper?-I think that is rather a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General.

was

4013. I suppose you could put a note on every Vote that the total cost given in the White Paper.-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) That is quite easy if I have not got to put in the volume what I call the extraneous figure which does not emerge from the account. It is very easy to say that further expenditure on this service is incurred here, there, or elsewhere. I have to put in the figures, then I am afraid I must keep the volume back for at least a fortnight.

If

4014. It is just to give us an idea that the total expenditure is not shown on that particular Vote?-We could put a general note in if the Committee would be satisfied without giving a figure. It would, of course, be saying the same thing over and over again in a good many cases, but it would only take up one line.

Major Salmon.

4015. As I understood Sir Otto, he would be able in every case to supply us with that information by letting us have in proof form the total expenditure in the different Classes ?—(Sir Otto Niemeyer.) Yes.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.

4016. As I understand the position, you have divided throughout this White Paper the items of expenditure under various heads that seem to you adequate. As a matter of fact, Northern Ireland occurs not once or twice, but several times. It occurs under Class II, Vote 40, and under Class III, Votes 17 and 18,

10 May, 1927.]

[Continued.

and it also occurs under Unclassified Services, Vote 10, and possibly somewhere else. What I understand Sir Fredric Wise would like would be, if all the items with regard to Northern Ireland could be included in one item. Of course, that would be perfectly possible, but it would not achieve the purpose which you are setting out to achieve? Of course, this White Paper follows the classification of the Estimates. The headings here are the headings of the Estimates. Then the Committee say, the Estimate only relates to what is classified under the Vote of the Department, and does not cover everything that we know technically as the allied services. We say we will divide up those allied services and put them in, but we must follow the Estimate classification. Of course, if you say the Estimate classification in itself is wrong, and that it would be more convenient to have a single estimate for everything that went to Nodthern Ireland, that is a question one can discuss from many aspects. No doubt for the purpose of knowing the total spent on Northern Ireland that would be very convenient, but for the purpose of knowing really what we spent on Judicial services as against Administration Education, it would be extremely inconvenient. You cannot have one classification which will answer all questions.

or

nothing for it but to have a special return, we can perfectly easily do it, but I do not think there are very many years when it will be of any particular interest to you.

Chairman.

4019. What you have just discussed is really the question of headings, is it not? For example, supposing we took the heading of Pensions, you could put down under that England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales, or you could put Old Age Pensions, Naval and Military War Pensions, and so on. Those are the kinds of alternative pictures that I suppose some of the Members of the Committee have in mind. You do not get that on the basis of what we have discussed with regard to Northern Ireland in this Paper, because it is plain that we must look about in different parts of the Paper before we get a complete picture of Northern Ireland. I quite agree it is a question of classification, and I am only asking for information at the moment. How far can you meet that desire on the basis of a comprehensive heading?-I think the rough basis which we have now in the Estimates is more or less by objects. Things like pensions, for instance, are all put together. That is generally thought to be the most convenient places. I should hesitate very much for many reasons to alter that. If there is any particular question which we ourselves may be interested in at any particular moment, which that classification does not on the face of it show, the figures have to be got out. That can be done, but personally I think the attempt to classify your expenditure by geographical distribution is not a very scientific way of doing it.

4020. I do not for a moment press the geographical point in mentioning those countries; I am only grouping under the heading of pensions. Take that as an illustration. Taking everything that you can call pensions in this country-pension payments of any description. The Members of the Committee as I understand some of their views-want to get that in some form that is simple and comprehensive. They want that complete picture before them.-Well, have they not got that in Class VI? You will see that in Class VI the first five Votes are all pensions-Civil Pensions, Irish Constabulary Pensions, Old Age Pensions,

Ministry of Pensions, and Seamen's Pensions. I do not see how you can put it much clearer.

Colonel Henderson.] Under the new classification in this year's Estimate, Class VIII is nothing but the pensions.

Chairman.

4021. That would be your reply on that, Sir Otto?-I think myself that if the Committee will try my suggestion with regard to this proof they will find that it will give them the information they want.

Sir Fredric Wise.

4022. Perhaps I happened to hit on a rather bad example in taking Northern Ireland, but in checking an account ore wants to know the total expenditure. One wants to know the total expenditure or Northern Ireland even in this classification, although it may not occur again. it occurs in Class II, and it also occurs in Unclassified Services. If you only deal with Class II you would not have the total cost for the particular year?-Not on Northern Ireland, but it would be the total cost of the particular services described by that Vote.

4023. But if you are checking Northern Ireland, you want the whole cost?—I am afraid I could not undertake that the Estimates should be so put together that you can see by looking at one figure the total expenditure of Northern Ireland, or Scotland, or Devonshire, I do not think it is practicable.

Then

4024. All I wanted was that at the end of Class II there should be a note stating that Northern Ireland was also referred to in the Unclassified Services. when one saw that note one could refer to it? I see. I do not think there would be any difficulty about that.

Chairman.] You will note that Sir Fredric is dealing with the White Paper. It is on this White Paper that you wish the note, Sir Fredric?

Sir Fredric Wise.] I do not mind which it is.

Chairman.

[Continued.

Sir Fredric Wise.

4026. That is all that is required?—I think there is no difficulty in that.

Major Salmon.

4027. Let us take the case of Scotland. You will notice on page 6 of this White Paper that pages 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 deal with Scotland. But if you turn over the page to Class III you will again see what the cost is for Police in Scotland, and for Prisons in Scotland. Also, if you turn to Class IV, you will see what the cost is of the National Galleries in Scotland. And so you go on under each Class. How is one to know what is the total expenditure in dealing with the cost in regard to Scotland? I suppose the answer would be that you take each Department separately, you do not look upon that as a whole? Of course, that goes back to what I was saying just now. You can, if you like, justify your expenditure geographically. When you say why should we not know what is spent on Scotland, I might as well say, why should we not know what is spent on Yorkshire, for instance. There is no scientific classification in that. As a matter of fact, the Scottish and Irish Votes in each of the objective Classes are more or less put together as a matter of history; but I agree you have to go through Administration and Education and Justice and pick out the Departments to get a geographical total.

4028. That is, if you are going to treat a geographical unit?--Yes. would take you, I suppose, about five minutes.

4029. That is, if you know your way about? It is quite easy to see it if you look at the Estimates.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

4030. There was the kindred question raised the other day with regard to the we could have Grants-in-aid, whether

printed differently those Grants-in-aid which were repayable as loans, and those which were purely Grants-in-aid and not repayable? I do not quite follow that. Grants-in-aid

4031. There are some which are not repayable, and there are some which are treated as loans and are repayable?—I should think there are extremely few which are repayable. Generally, if a Grant-in-aid was repayable it would certainly be described in the EstiThere would be no quesmate as such. tion of that. But you may be on the

those Grants-in

point of surrender. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Might I intervene upon this matter? I think the difficulty that the Committee felt was that in Appropriation Accounts the various grants under Colonial Services on page 391, are all described as Grants-in-aid, and the account itself does not contain any indication whether aid are loans or free grants. 1 think that was the difficulty. One answer which I did not give at the time when the question was raised is that in the Estimates which are voted by Parliament that point is made perfectly plain. The Grant-in-aid, being a generic technical accounting term is explained in the Estimates as being in certain cases a free gift, and in certain cases a loan. If the Committee follow me so far, the practical point is whether in the Appropriation Accounts any further details should be introduced.

4032. The suggestion that I made was that the grants which were free gifts should be printed in italics in the account -or something to that effect? (Sir Otto Niemeyer.) I think if the Committee wish that done I would ask them not to have them printed in italics, because that adds a good deal of complication in the matter of printing; but it would be perfectly possible to add words saying that this was a loan.

4033. That is a matter of detail?-Yes. But I should think there were very few cases that were repayable in the case of the Colonial grants. I think it would be perfectly possible to indicate it in some way if desired. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Of course there are many Grants-in-aid scattered up and down the Estimates, and there are a few repayable. We could indicate the repayable ones. (Sir Otto Niemeyer.) A Grant-in-aid, generally speaking, is merely a subscription.

4034. It was merely to indicate whether it was repayable. That was what we wanted to know?-I think it would be perfectly possible in the explanation to say: "This grant is repayable," or to say to what extent it is repayable. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) It would be very easy in the accounts of the whole of the Services to put in an asterisk and a note at the foot saying "Repayable." One word and a few asterisks would do it, if that would meet the Committee's wish.

Chairman.] Yes.

Major Salmon.

[Continued.

4035. Sir Otto, the Members of the Committee have from time to time been asking witnesses with regard to the official hours of work in the offices of the Departments. Would you kindly give us the official hours?-I can only give them to you in general terms. Generally speaking, the Whitehall Civil Servant has an official week of 42 hours. He is entitled to a half holiday on Saturday if public business permits, and, generally speaking, he gets his half holiday. So that would make his official hours 39 per week. Then, of course, he does in practice go out to lunch. I think he is supposed to have three-quarters of an hour for lunch. That is as regards the Whitehall Civil Servant.

4036. May I ask, when you deduct the three-quarters of an hour for lunch, what is the net number of hours he works per week?-It would be something like 34 hours. That is the Whitehall Civil Servant. But, of course, the vast majority of people in public employment are not Whitehall Civil Servants at all, but are people in the dockyards, or postmen, or officials in the Post Offices in the country. They all have, in fact, an 8-hour day, I think, as distinct from the clerical people.

4037. Do the clerical staff in the Post Offices work the 48 hours?—I think the clerical staff in the Provinces with a few minor exceptions work the 8 hours day, but the clerical staff in the Central Post Office who Civil Service classes have the same hours as the ordinary Civil Service.

are

common

4038. That is 39 hours a week?-Yes. of course the Committee will understand that people do not get overtime until they have done their 42 hours, if there is a question of overtime.

4039. They may be called upon to work up to 42 hours a week, and they do not receive any overtime payment until they exceed the 42 hours? Yes. I am talking of the general classes. There are all sort of different classes which may have different rules.

4040. That is generally for the Central Office? Generally speaking, yes.

4041. What about the question of holidays? That.varies with length of service, and grade.

4042. But I mean the holidays of the class of officers you are referring to the people doing 39 hours a week?-The 39 hours week applies to everybody from

a boy clerk to myself. The holiday arrangements, on the other hand, vary according to the status.

4043. What about the holidays of the vast majority of the clerical staff?-I am afraid I could not tell you from memory. I could send you a note if you wish to know. I think it would be three weeks or a month. I believe I myself am entitled to eight weeks, but i cannot say that I know.

4044. I am not speaking of the higher officials. As a matter of fact, when you speak of yourself, one realises that the higher officials probably work many more hours, and also take work home.

But

I am not dealing with that side of the question for the moment. How does the 39 hours compare with the best commercial houses?-I am afraid I could not tell you. I do not know at all.

4045. How long has this arrangement of 39 hours a week been in operation? -Certainly as long as I have known the Civil Service.

4046. It is not an arrangement that has been made lately?-No. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Might I say that when the Civil Service hours were first mentioned in Order-in-Council

Sir John Marriott.

4047. When was that done?-In the '70s. I think it was in 1876, speaking from memory. The day was then six hours for some, seven for others. Later on, the day was extended to not less than seven hours, and those who had been engaged on a six-hour basis were given compensation for attending the seventh hour. Since, I think, 1890, the seven hours day that Sir Otto has described has been in force. But that only applies, as Sir Otto says, to the clerical classes, which form only a small percentage, perhaps 10 per cent. of all the people employed in the Civil Service.

Major Salmon.

4048. Those hours apply, you say, only to 10 per cent. of the total staff? That is a rough guess. They certainly do not apply to 20 per cent. They do not apply to all the industrial staffs. They do not apply to Officers of Customs, which number about 5,000 or 6,000. They do not apply to the Inland Revenue people, other than certain classes in London, nor to the manipulative people, the counter

clerks, the sorting clerks and télegraphists. They apply only to what we call clerical officers who are a limited class of perhaps 20,000 altogether.

4049. And they are strictly confined to London ?-That is broadly the fact. 4050. Otherwise it is a 48-hour week? -In the Provinces the clerical officers to whom Sir Otto has referred have an eight-hour day. That is to say, they have five days of eight hours, they have a half-holiday on Saturday, and they have their three-quarters of an hour off for lunch.

4051. What are the net number of hours they would work in the country? -Five days at 71 hours per day, and a short day on Saturday. That would be 394 hours for the week. It would be 5 hours longer than the figure Sir Otto has just given for London. It would be roughly 391 or 40 hours. But they are liable to work all Saturday afternoon if called upon, if there is an emergency.

Sir John Marriott.

4052. Have not the hours been reconsidered since 1890?-Oh, yes, they have formed the subject of very grave consideration.

4053. When were they last reconsidered? I happen to be, as perhaps the Members of the Committee know, a member of the Whitley Council of Civil Servants, and the question has been brought up within the last two years.

4054. What was the decision?-The decision was to leave things undisturbed at present.

4055. Do you happen to remember whether any comparison was made at the time when this matter was reconsidered from the point of view suggested by Major Salmon; that is to say, were the hours reconsidered in comparison with other similar occupations?—I am afraid I cannot charge my memory with that. I was not directly in charge of the negotiations. (Sir Otto Niemeyer.) I am pretty sure they were, as a matter of fact, though I cannot speak with personal knowledge about the matter?

4056. Could not that be ascertained? To pursue a little further the point raised by Major Salmon-what were the considerations which left the hours undisturbed when they were last considered, which we understand was within the last two years?