15 March, 1927.]

[Continued.

Colonel Henderson.

657. Following upon the statement you have just made, Sir Lionel, that that occurs in all cases, I should like to ask why it is in the case of the Prisons Vote the expenditure which is made presumably by the Office of Works is borne on the Prisons Vote and not on the Office of Works Vote?-(Sir Lionel Earle.) Do you mean as regards buildings?

658. Yes. We do not build for the Prisons.

659. Why not?-It is the only exception. I do not think you can help it because of the prison labour and the discipline necessary. You see they build largely with their convict labour.

660. But they do not. The larger part of the vote for prison expenditure is, I gather, done by contract?-That may be. It has nothing to do with me.

661. It never has been?-It never has been.

Chairman.

662. On this account you have a paragraph in your report, Sir Malcolm. It is paragraph 8, page vi. It tells a rather unhappy story. Would you like to add anything to the paragraph ?—(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) No. I think the paragraph tells the story shortly.

The

663. Would you like to add anything by way of explanation, Sir Lionel ? (Sir Lionel Earle.) I can tell the Committee a good deal about it. It has been the most heart-breaking and difficult job. First of all, there is the extraordinary position in which this place is. station is about 80 miles from the BurmoChinese frontier, and is important as being on a trade route between China and Burma. The conditions there are very primitive, and the situation of the place is so unfortunately remote from Shanghai, which is our headquarters in

*The laboratory is being built for the purpose of researches under the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, in the Estimates for which the cost is referred to as an allied service rendered by the Office of Works. The researches relate to the properties of Empire timber, e.g., hardness, sheer, impact and static bending, preservation, seasoning, storage, etc., and at this stage have no direct connection with the work of the Forestry Commission, which is in the main afforestation.-F. P."

BUILDINGS.

China, that communication is extremely difficult. The existing premises are rented Chinese buildings which are in a ruinous condition. There are huge gaps in the rotten partitions between the rooms, and the outer walls are made of mud and plaster and are crumbling away and threatening to collapse. The floors are rotten and are attacked by white ants, and rats, fleas and other vermin abound. That was the condition of affairs when we were pressed by the Foreign Office to provide a new building. It was very important, naturally, to consider the type of building we should adopt. It was obviously unwise to proceed with the building on these local conditions, because the supervision was so difficult. It takes at least 12 days to get from Shanghai. You have to go 1,000 miles up the Irawaddy after going by sea. It was, therefore, decided to build very much the type of building that we erect in China generally. The building was started. I think the initial mistake was that after the war the estimate ought to have been considerably increased. We have had enormous difficulty, too, with regard to the exchange. We have to buy rupees which have to be converted then into local, not Chinese, Tengyueh dollars, and the exchange has fluctuated enormously. The transport has been intensely diffi

15 March, 1927.]

cult, and every piece of timber has to be hewn and surfaced locally. They have even closed down the quarries at times; there have been merchant rings and labour troubles; and no possible contract could be entered into, it has all had to be done by direct labour. Two clerks of the works collapsed through bad health and have had to be replaced. We have now a very efficient man there, but unfortunately recently the whole place has fallen into the hands of bandits. The Consul has fled, but our man still remains, and I hope the building will be finished this year. But of course there is a very unfortunate increase on the original estimate. Where I think the initial mistake was made was after the war when this initial estimate of £8,900 was put forward, and which ought to have been very considerably increased. The climatic conditions are appalling, and rain is interrupting the work of the building at times and rendering the journey to Bangkok quite impossible. And the two other clerks of the works have succumbed to illness. In 1922 I got so alarmed about the situation that I pressed the Government of India tc allow a high official from the Public Works Department of Burma to proceed to Tengyueh to see there was no gross mismanagement or misfeasance, or any robbery on the part of our representatives there. The report was sent to the

Treasury. I do not mean to say that that official did not pass certain strictures as regards organisation, but he gave an absolutely clean bill of health as regard the honesty and integrity of the people there. -(Mr. Phillips.) It was really a continued series of accidents which caused this great excess of expenditure. Two clerks of the works broke down in health, and had to be replaced after an interval. They could not be replaced immediately, seeing that there is a journey of 2,500 miles from Shanghai to get to this place.

664. Is this building strictly necessary? -(Sir Lionel Earle.) The Foreign Office insisted on it. It is apparently a very important place. If any Member of the Committee would like to know the size of the house, it is of very moderate size. I could give the Members the size of the halls, the number of rooms, and so on. The Foreign Office pressed for this before the war, of course.

665. If this place is apparently permanently infested with rats and vermin, what will be the limit of the liability?—

[Continued.

667. I understand from what you say that the Consul has fled. Is there any likelihood of the Consul returning to live in the house ?-I think so. He has only gone temporarily because they put to death certain people, which I think he had given an undertaking should not be done. I think he left more as a protest at that disregard of his advice than anything else.

668. A very diplomatic way of protesting?--Yes, but he has written a tremendous pæan of praise of the gallantry and fortitude of our man Mr. Groves who is conducting operations now.

Sir Fredric Wise.

669. If the Foreign Office insist on any special building, have you to carry it out? I think so. I will not say a special type of building, but a special building in a certain place. I think we are bound to carry that out.

670. You are bound to carry it out?I think so if the Secretary of State says

So.

Mr. Briggs.

671. The cost of this building puzzles me. You said just now that you could give us particulars of the house if we wished to have them. I do not want to ask you for a lot of details, but I shall be glad if you will tell us how many rooms there are?-A hall, office, study, dining-room, drawing-room, four bedrooms, three bathrooms of the Chinese pattern, which does not mean flowing water but merely a zinc tank, two verandahs, servants' quarters, and domestic offices; stables for three horses; official servants' quarters, and a writer's house.

15 March, 1927.]

672. Is the writer's house of much importance?-No, it is a tiny little thing. 673. One would understand rather that a house out there does not necessarily mean a house of the character of a European house. It is much lighter in character?-Yes, it is very like the type of houses we build in the Treaty Ports.

674. Such a house as you have just mentioned might be built in this country for £5,000? Oh yes, I should think so, easily.

675. Then why should a house of a less costly character amount to £17,000 in cost? The timber for every portion of that house had to be brought on donkeys' backs over 200 miles.

676. I do not want to ask you for details if it is any trouble, but I should like to know out of the £12,000 that has already been spent could you tell me how much has been actually spent on material in the house, and how much has been expenses in going backwards and forwards from Shanghai, etc. Those are costs which are not really a part of the cost of the building?-We might be able to render that statement, but we may have to refer to Shanghai for it.

677. I do not want to put you to a lot of trouble. I thought you might be able to give me some rough idea.

Chairman.] You will observe that the original estimate was £8,950.

Mr. Briggs.

678. Yes. The original estimate must have been based on a knowledge of the actual facts with regard to the cost of building a house there?-I think that was not so. I think that was the initial mistake. I think our office at Shanghai had not sufficiently taken into account in forming that estimate the appalling difficulties of building there, and the difficulties with regard to materials and everything. Anything that cannot be obtained locally has to be sent up the Irawaddy 1,000 miles.

679. Then you would regard the matter from the point of view of there having been a series of errors over this question? -I think a great deal of the expenditure is due to faults over which nobody had any control, but I think the first real

[Continued.

siderably increased. There is no question about that.

680. You are making an apology for them now, but it does not alter the fact that you believe there have been considerable errors of judgment? Yes. I think that perhaps the actual roof timbers might have been designed in a different way so that smaller balks of timber might have been used. But you are awfully handicapped out there; you cannot get steel, or any of the modern things which would get rid of this trouble except at enormous cost due to transport.

681. Are there any other houses within five miles of this house?-There is nothing but these mud houses. It was due to the appalling conditions in which the Consul had to live that the Foreign Office said that they could not really expect an official to live in those conditions, and I think they were right.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

682. You spoke of your Shanghai office. What did you exactly mean by that? We have some Architects and Surveyors there to deal with all the Japanese and Chinese services.

683. Independent of the Colonial Government?-Yes. We have all the Treaty Port compounds to deal with. We have the Legation at Peking, and we have all the Consulates.

684. Is the cost of that office borne anywhere on our estimates?-Oh yes, certainly.

Major Salmon.

685. Arising out of that question, may I ask are the staff engaged at Shanghai a permanent staff?-The actual men ir the office are permanent.

686. Do the staff go round visiting different places ?—Yes.

687. How many places do they supervise?-A very large number. I cannot give you the exact number now. Hangkow, Tientsin, and all those Treaty Ports; and Japan as well, of courseYokohama and Kobe.

688. They have not much to inspect at Kobe except an office?—No more than they have at Yokohama, because it has all been demolished by earthquake.

689. But the Consul at Kobe has a suite of rooms in a large office building. It would be rather interesting if we could have a list of the number of places they have to visit ?-I could send you a list of all the places they supervise in China, and are responsible for.

15 March, 1927.]

690. You can supply us with a list of whatever the staff at this office are responsible for?-Yes, I can easily do that.*

Mr. Briggs.

691. Would it not be less costly to control it from this end entirely?—It could not be done. The constant maintenance requirements would be appallingly expensive if one had to send people out to China.

692. It would only be the management that you would have to send out?-Oh, no; you would have to have architects and surveyors.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.

693. With regard to the items on pages 32 and 33, I should like to know a little bit more about the position of the Office of Works as owner of sites in China. Do I understand that the Office of Works own a considerable number of sites in various places in China?-Yes.

694. Do they own sites over and above what they require for their own Consular offices?-There are all the Concessions in the Treaty Ports which we deal with. We deal with the leases.

695. You have all the leases?-We have all the leases in the Treaty Ports.

696. And you sub-let?-They are let to lot holders on 99-year leases.

697. Whatever profit there is to be made comes then into the Office of Works? Yes, the proceeds come into our office. They are very small at the moment, of course, because they were let 60 years ago at a comparatively speaking low rental. The whole thing is now under revision, but all the schemes we have are rather upset by the complicated position in China at the present

moment.

698. The two recent agreements made at Hangkow, for instance, are affecting it ? Yes.

699. You have certain sites which you have under the Concession which you let to lot holders? Yes. They were let 60 years ago on a 99 years' lease.

700. So that they have at least 39 years more to run?-Yes, but they have approached us during the last few years for extension of leases, and we are prepared to give on a very much larger rental a 999 years' lease. That has not matured for the moment, because of the trouble in China which has held up the whole position, but we are in close touch * See Appendix 3.

[Continued.

with the Foreign Office on the whole problem now.

701. Apart from this recent agreement, you have had the freehold of these sites? -Yes. They were originally bought by the Government in China for the development of the English community; but there are not only English tenants, there are a certain number of Chinese.

702. And, in some cases, foreign Governments?-Most of the foreign Governments had these Concessions.

703. Are they in some cases leasing some of your property for the purpose of erecting their own Consulates? They, of course, can sub-let their property which they rented originally from the British Government.

704. You are not quite on the point I am raising. I understand you to say that there are some concessions made by the Chinese to us?-Yes.

705. There are also some concessions made by the Chinese to other foreign Governments?—Yes.

706. The question I am putting to you is this. Have you in some cases let off some of your concessions to other foreign Governments for the purpose of their Consulates?-No.

707. You have only let to individuals? -We have only let to individuals, but they are not all English of course, some of them are Chinese.

708. And some of them are other foreigners? It may be that is so.

Mr. Briggs.

So

709. Looking at the pages of this account in a general way, Sir Lionel, it makes one wonder how it happens that in the year under review there are many new Consulates and new diplomatic residences becoming necessary. On the three pages devoted to this account, I calculate that there are over 20 in the one year?-That is very largely due, I am afraid, to the Treaty of Versailles which created a large number of new countries. Just look at the number of diplomatic residences that we have now compared with what we had before the War. For instance, Helsingfors, Riga, Budapesth, Prague, Warsaw. Not one of those existed before the War. 710. Some of the costs, putting them against costs as know them here, appear to be at a pretty high rate?Which particular one are you referring to?

we

711. There are several, but I will just take a couple on page 37. There is a