568. Of course, you know that they do give special discounts?-Oh, yes. We are aware of that. That system involves our becoming the paymasters for the whole series, and a certain amount of accounting between ourselves and the War Department and other Departments, and it is a somewhat troublesome matter. Unless in any particular case there is something solid to be gained, I doubt whether it is worth the candle.

569. Up to the present time you have not taken in the whole because of the cumbersomeness of the accounts?We should not let that interfere. If we found the saving worth while we should not let the difficulty of the accounts stand in the way. But it may be that if this system extends very much we should want some extra men on the accounting side.

570. You are not in a position yet to say to what extent you can economise under that head?-Only with regard to certain cases. In perhaps a dozen or half a dozen cases we can say that our savings amount to so much.

571. When will you be in a position to take a review of the whole country? -It is a very long job.

572. Who makes the original contracts?-When you speak of the original contracts, they are simply the usual notices of the gas company or electric light company which they require to be filled up before they put on a supply.

573. But with your large premises you do not try to make a special deal with the company?-That would, I think, be the case now.

[Continued.

574. It has not been so in the past? -We are beginning to work on those lines.

575. You are gaining experience slowly? I do not know about that.

Sir Fredric Wise.

576. You cannot dictate to the companies, can you, Sir Lionel ?-(Sir Lionel Earle.) We can only dictate by saying that we will have some other form of lighting; but that is not a very good weapon.

577. Literally you cannot dictate to them?-No. They have really monopoly; that is what it comes to.

Mr. Briggs.

578. Are the companies willing to recognise you as one buyer? If you have a group of these different offices, for instance in the St. James's area, covering different classes of user, and if you go to the company on behalf of the whole group, are they willing to recognise you as such, or do they say that such an office is a separate customer and such another office is a separate customer?—Oh, no; they will take us as a whole.

579. Always?—Not always. (Mr. Buchanan.) In certain cases it is refused.

Major Salmon.

580. In London ?-Not in London; in the Provinces.

Mr. Briggs.

581. You are practically helpless with regard to such a decision?-(Sir Lionel Earle.) I think they give us better terms than the ordinary individual, because we are very big consumers.

582. But you cannot compel them against their will?-No.

Major Salmon.] Sir Lionel Earle has suggested that a paper might be put in on this. It would be very interesting to have it.

Chairman.] Yes. I was proposing to deal with that afterwards, but we can clear it up now. Will you make it plain what kind of paper you want?

Major Salmon.] The paper I would like to have would be a statement as to whether we get a price for the individual

15 March, 1927.]

or for the group, and whether there is a sliding scale if you get so many units.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.] I should like to ask whether it is altogether desirable that we should be given these figures if we get these supplies at less price than the ordinary consumer.

Chairman.] That is a question that raised itself in my own mind. There may be elements in it that present a difficulty.

Major Salmon.

583. If I may say so, on those figures being presented to the Committee by Sir Lionel, the Committee could then decide whether it should be included on the Minutes or not. I do not think it would be wise to publish the figures.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I should have thought it would be sufficient if we had the assurance of Sir Lionel that they get the supply at a price considerably below the price charged to the individual. That is as much as we are entitled to get here.

Chairman.

584. I am rather inclined to that view, though I do not want to stand in the way of information being obtained. Have the Treasury anything to say on that point? (Mr. Phillips.) I am rather inclined to agree with what you have just said, Sir.

Major Salmon.

585. I do not, of course, want any information presented to the Committee that would be detrimental to the services buying in the cheapest market. That is perfectly obvious. But I was rather falling in with the suggestion that emanated from Sir Lionel himself that he could give the Committee certain figures, and, if I may say so with respect to the Committee, I think they are really making a great thing of the question of getting special terms. It all depends on the consumption. There is no doubt that a supply company put their customers on special terms when the quantities are likely to be large. They take the risk that the quantities will be large in giving you special terms. That is quite a usual thing, it is done every day of the week throughout the country. I do not think there is any novelty about that side of the matter The only point is this. Sir Lionel made the observation that he was not in a position to say if they were

[Continued.

obtaining supplies on the lowest terms. I do not want to misrepresent him; I think that is what he said.-(Sir Lionel Earle.) I do not know if anyone can say which are the lowest terms.

Chairman.] There is another side of course, and that is, it could be used as an argument against the Government in other directions.

Colonel Henderson.

586. Could we not get over the difficulty by getting Sir Lionel to show us what savings he has made from previous agreements by making contracts for larger supplies in any case either in the Provinces or in London? Would not that give us the information we want? We could then decide, if we could get the information also for water and gas, whether the whole question was worth taking up either by this Committee or the Estimates Committee.-Over what period of years?

587. You have only been doing this two or three years?-It cannot go back very far; it would mean a lot of research.

Chairman.

594. Sir Malcolm, there is no report on this account? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) No.

Mr. Briggs.

595. What is the average number of patients at Osborne ?-(Sir Lionel Earle.) I think the average number is about 36 to 38. It varies somewhat from year to year.

596. They cost somewhere roughly in the neighbourhood of £400 or £500 apiece per annum, and that is after deducting what they pay?-But that is, of course, for the whole of the maintenance of the house and grounds. Of course it was not built as a hospital. It is a most wonderful place for the recuperation of these people, but it must be, by the very nature of the building, an expensive place to run as a hospital.

597. I see that part of the cost is due to the maintenance of the State Apartments. Are those viewed by many visitors? A very large number of visitors visit the State Apartments in summer time, and they pay to go in.

598. Are the patients of any particular class? I do not mean social class? -They are officers of the Army, Navy, and Air Force, and Civil Servants who have served in tropical countries.

the Army, Navy or Air Force, or the India Office, and so on.

601. There is one item that looks rather a heavy one, namely, furniture. That item, I see, amounts to nearly £1,000, out of a total of £16,000.-We took £910, and we spent £924. There is a slight excess of £14 11s.

602. It is not the excess I was talking about. It is the total expenditure of £924.-Well, of course, curtains, carpets, and equipment generally in the House require renewing. That item covers the maintenance of existing furniture, and the supply of additional furniture, curtains, blinds, telephone, glass crockery, &c.

603. How does this year compare with that year? Can you give me the amount for this year?-For the year 1926-27 it is £660, while for the year 1925-26 it was £910.

Sir Fredric Wise.

599. And who are suffering from illnesses? Suffering from diseases or ailments contracted in those unnatural climes to which they were not born.

600. By whom are they sent there?They are sent by the Medical Officers of the various Departments under whom they are, i.e., the Director General of

Mr. Briggs.

607. On page 12 I see there is an item of a new cottage at Chohole Gate amounting to £1,018. It says in respect of that item that there are further charges to come. What will the total cost of that cottage be?-(Mr. Buchanan.) There will be some further charges in this current year.

608. I was wondering what the ultimate cost of that cottage will be?-The estimate is £1,050. (Sir Lionel Earle.) I do not think it has been exceeded.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

609. What are the experimental areas in Benmore and Glenbrander referred to in the footnote B. on page 9?-Those are the Botanic Gardens at Edinburgh.

610. They are at Edinburgh ?—No, they are in the West, but they come under the Botanic Gardens at Edinburgh. It was partly the Forestry Commission. An estate was bought by the Government, I think from Sir Harry Lauder, and Glenbrander has been given as a gift.

611. Are they going to involve us in

GARDENS.

much cost?-I do not think there is very much cost in connection with them.

612. I see the note says they have not yet been brought into full development. The item of unemployment relief works is some £4,000 more than estimated?The explanation, I think, is given on page 10.

613. Is that a continuing item?—No, that is finished.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

614. Where do the proceeds from the Richmond Park Golf Course come in? Are they shown in this account?-We had not taken it over till last year. But this year the proceeds will come in the Appropriations in Aid.

I

615. Is it likely to be a profitable thing? Tremendously profitable. think the receipts at the present moment amount to about £4,700 or £4,800 this year, and we paid £6,000 for it. It is a gold mine.

Sir John Marriott.

616. Are the receipts from the entrance fees to Kew Gardens shown here?-No, those will come under the Ministry of Agriculture.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

617. Have you any final figure yet as to how much will have to be spent on repairs on the building of the Houses of Parliament?-Yes, we have, but it is not yet settled as to what stone is going to be used, because Lord Peel, my Minister, was meeting a Deputation this very morning on this very question. If carried out on the lines that we recommend it will mean, over a period of about 16 years, a provision of about £1,200,000.

618. Spread over 16 years?-Spread over 14 or 16 years, I think.

619. There are suggestions in regard to alternative materials?-Yes, the Minister is considering that. There has been a certain remonstrance as to using the Stancliff stone by the London masons, partly on the ground of health and partly for other reasons.

620. Would the other be more expensive or less expensive?-What the Deputation who came this morning wanted was the whole building cased in new stone entirely from top to bottom, which of course would be infinitely more expensive. We calculate it would cost about £4,500,000.

15 March, 1927.]

[Continued.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.

621. If you spend this amount of £1,200,000 will that make the building secure for a considerable number of years? Oh, yes. That is eliminating a certain part, which we consulted the Royal Fine Arts Commission upon, of the highly decorative work where it is not seen and where it does not affect the outside skyline of the building; in the courtyard, for instance, and certain places on the roof where nobody can see it. I think it would be ridiculous to spend enormous sums of money upon such parts which nobody can see.

622. But when this work is done it will be supposed to last for a considerable time?-Yes. But of course there is always erosion going on in stone, whatever stone you use unless you use granite. Even in Portland stone you have it.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

623. The improvement of ventilation in the Debating Chamber was postponed owing to financial exigencies. Have those exigencies been overcome, and is the ventilation in the Debating Chamber going to be improved ?-I think honourable Members are in a better position to know than I am; but I should say those exigencies were worse this year than I can almost ever remember.

624. It is a little hard perhaps that we should be the first to suffer from these financial exigencies. What form were the improvements to take?—They were to bring the air in in a different way; instead of bringing the air about the feet they were to bring it in over the heads of people.

Mr. Briggs.

625. What is the alteration that has been made to the Members' Staircase? -That is oak-work that was put up where the pictures are on the staircase going down to the Terrace. The oak panelling fitted was very much less elaborate than was originally contemplated.

626. What has been the result of the installation of the acoustic instruments

in the House of Lords? Have they proved of service?-Oh, yes, to deaf peers of great service.

Major Salmon.

627. I should like to understand about item C. on page 14, relating to the maintenance of approaches and gardens. When one looks at the note relating to item C. it says: "The cost of lighting fell short of the provision." But, on the other hand, under the item D. you deal with lighting. It seems there is a duplication. I do not quite follow.Item C. deals with the lighting in the approaches to the Houses of Parliament, and the gardens.

628. What does the other lighting refer to? Is one referring to the outside and the other to the inside? Is that what it means?-(Mr. Buchanan.) Yes.

629. You keep them as two separate things?—Yes.

630. Item B. is £60,000 odd for maintenance and repairs. What maintenance and repairs does that refer to? Is that generally for the Houses, and nothing to do with the work you are doing externally? (Sir Lionel Earle.) Oh, yes, it covers all the stone picking. We handpick to the tune of 16 tons a year.

631. Is that in addition to the £1,200,000 ?-Yes, but that would stop altogether when we get to work on the building itself. We have to go on handpicking this stone to save the lives of Members.

cease

632. As soon as you start on the capital sum it will cease?-It will where we are at work, but it will not cease where we are not at work. It will, however, stop ultimately when the work has progressed to a certain extent.

I

633. How much of that £60,000 does that particular piece of work cost? suppose it does not cost actually the whole of the £60,000?-Oh, no; the handpicking only comes to about £5,000 a

Sir Fredric Wise.

635. Under item E. I see a rather large

item for furniture ?-Yes. You will see the explanation on page 18.