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Sir Robert Hamilton.

6572. What is the basis on which India makes a contribution ?-If you turn to page 7 you will see that India pays £100,000 towards the cost of maintaining His Majesty's ships in India waters, and that is divided over the various Votes as shown on pages 6 and 7.

6573. Is that a fixed contribution ?-It is a fixed contribution.

6574. How was that arrived at ?-It was arrived at a good many years ago. It was considered that India had the advantage of our ships on the East India station and in the Persian Gulf, and the Indian Government agreed to make that contribution.

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6575. Does it come up for review at all? It has come up for review once or twice in the sense that the Admiralty have tried to get the Government of India to increase it, and it might presumably come up for review at some future time when India was spending a good deal on her own Navy if that time ever does arrive, and might consequently suggest reducing this contribution. But at present we understand there is no question of reducing it.

Mr. Ellis.

6576. It is an ex gratia payment altogether, of course?—Yes; if they said they would not pay it any more we could not do anything.

ON VOTE 2.

VICTUALLING AND CLOTHING FOR THE NAVY, INCLUDING THE COST OF VICTUALLING ESTABLISHMENTS AT HOME AND ABROAD.

Major Salmon.

6577. On the question of the method of the purchasing of the different items coming under this Vote, do you work in conjunction with other Departments to making contracts?-Where it is possible to do so, we do. For instance, I think our frozen meat contracts are made in conjunction with the Army.

6578. What about clothing? Of course our clothing is quite different from the Army clothing.

6579. It is cloth of a different character?-It is clothing of such a different character that you could not combine the two in one contract with any advantage. Ours is mostly, of course, blue serge.

6580. You have presumably experts who buy your serge, and presumably you have it made up after you have bought the cloth? We have experts to examine our serge, and most of it is issued simply as serge to the men and they make it up for themselves.

6581. Do you purchase it direct from the mill, or through a middleman, a contractor? We purchase it direct from the mill, from the actual manufacturers.

6582. You may purchase twelve months in advance, or any other period?-Yes. We do not purchase more than twelve months in advance.

6583. On this particular Vote you have a very large quantity of already made-up

material which is a remnant from the War?-Yes.

6584. That is not having the effect of reducing, as I understood you on the last occasion, the quantity of serge you are still ordering?-When we can use an out-size we use that in preference to making up a new out-size, of course; but the cases in which we can use that stock are comparatively few now, for the reason mentioned last time.

6585. What about your consumable food stuffs, such as canned foods or dried fruits or flour. Do you buy those things in conjunction with the Army and Air Force? No, we place our own contracts.

6586. Do you have any consultation as to the periods in which you make your contracts for flour?-We buy flour practically throughout the year. We watch the markets and buy when it is advantageous to do so. We do not buy our flour all at one time. That would be very disadvantageous I should think.

6587. If you thought the market in flour was going up would you buy in larger quantities than the normal?-We might do, if the Director of Contracts advised us to do so.

6588. You would not have any difficulty from the Treasury side in getting advances for that purpose?-We should have to do it out of our vote for the year, and as long as we can do it out of the money granted for Vote 2 the Treasury are not concerned.

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6589. What are the recoveries mentioned on page 14?-As I have just explained, we issue the material to the men and they make up the clothing. A man is allowed a money allowance per year for the upkeep of his kit; he comes to us and buys the serge and then gets it made up for himself.

6590. What about tobacco?-Tobacco he also takes up on payment from us. He buys his tobacco, but he buys it duty free.

6591. Then it becomes an appropriation in aid? It becomes an appropriation in aid.

6592. Then do you buy so many tons of tobacco?-We buy a very large quantity of tobacco. Some of it is raw tobacco in the leaf. Some men still take up the old leaf tobacco. The rest we buy in tins. 6593. Is that satisfactory?-Quite.

6594. Do you make any profit on it?Yes, we do. I should think we generally make about 3d. a lb. profit on the

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tobacco. Of course, we only charge 1s. 6d. a lb. for the tobacco, so that we think the men can afford to pay that.

Major Salmon.

6595. Does that figure go towards paying overhead charges for store expenses? -Yes.

Sir Fredric Wise.

6596. It is an appropriation ?—It is an appropriation.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

6597. Even if the men are smoking on shore are they still allowed to buy tobacco duty free, or is it only on foreign stations?—It is allowed if they are serving on board ship. They are not allowed to have it duty free when serving on shore.

6598. They could not get it duty free in a dock or any place of that sort?No.

ON VOTE 3.

MEDICAL SERVICES, INCLUDING THE COST OF MEDICAL ESTABLISH. MENTS AT HOME AND ABROAD.

Mr. Briggs.

AND ON VOTE 4.
FLEET AIR ARM.

6599. Is there any joint medical service between the Navy and Army at all?— Yes. At Chatham there is only the one hospital. It is a Naval hospital, and the Army patients go to it. That principle is also being extended to Plymouth. There is only to be one hospital at Plymouth, and the Army will come to us there. At Gibraltar the only hospital is an Army hospital, and the Navy patients go there.

6600. May we take it that it is an accepted rule that there are not two separate hospitals in the same district, one for the Navy and one for the Army? -I think you can take it that that is so everywhere now. You must understand, of course, the phrase "in the same district" in a reasonable way. For instance, we have separate hospitals at Malta, but that is because the Army is practically at one end of Malta, and the Navy is at the other end, and the roads and communications are very bad.

6601. With regard to Vote 4, who controls the service covered by that Vote?— The Admiralty control the service in the sense that they decide what they want and ask the Air Ministry to provide it. The Air Ministry have the responsibility for providing according to the demand of the Admiralty.

6602. The Air Ministry provide the material and the personnel? The personnel is partly Fleet personnel and partly Royal Air Force personnel. The arrangement was that 70 per cent. of the personnel in the Fleet Air Arm should be naval.

6603. But it is under the direction of the Navy? It is under the direction of the Navy in the sense that we say what air facilities are required for the Fleet and that the Naval authorities are responsible for the use made of the Fleet Air Arm.

Sir Fredric Wise.

6604. What is the number of the personnel? I do not know what it was in

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this particular year. gradually increased as we get machines. It was in rather an embryo state at this time. I am afraid I have not got the exact figure here.

6605. I notice your actual amount of expenditure on the Fleet Air Arm is down considerably in the Estimates for this year compared with 1925-26?—Yes, that 1s So. I am afraid it will be up again a little next year. It was due to the fact that owing to the long time taken in the conversion of certain ships into aircraft carriers it was not considered advisable to provide all the flights of aircraft for the use of those carriers this year I am speaking of 1927-but to leave some of them over till 1928 and 1929.

6606. Your grant in the year 1925-26 was £1,320,000 ?—Yes.

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6610. Are the aircraft involved in that? I think the aircraft are all made by contractors; I think the Air Ministry do not make their own aircraft.

6611. And any work that you have to do in consequence of having aircraft on board ship is provided out of this figure, or is it charged to another Vote?—I am not quite sure that I understand the honourable Member's question. Aircraft will be put on board an aircraft carrier perhaps; the working of that aircraft carrier is charged to the Navy Votes in the ordinary way like any other of His Majesty's ships. But if an aircraft were smashed up in flight we would return that to the Air Ministry, and they would supply us with another one instead.

6612. Would you be debited with a new one? It is all lumped in the grant. That would not add to the grant. That is a round figure agreed between the two Departments.

6613. It is an inclusive figure?—It is an inclusive figure. It covers any unexpected accident like a crash of an aircraft during the year.

6614. They give you an inclusive figure, and they become responsible to rep aircraft if there is any crashing?—Yes. It is not pretended that this figure is an absolutely accurate figure, but it is an approximate figure put into the Estimates in order that the responsibility of the Admiralty for their demands on the Air Ministry may be brought before Parliament.

6615. And may be limited ?-Yes, ar may be limited.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

6616. Is this figure reviewed periodically? It is a different figure every year. It is the approximate figure corresponding to the demand we make on the Air Ministry for that year.

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28 June, 192.1

Sir OswYN MURRAY, K.C.B.

due to some difficulties with the profession which were of rather old standing, but have now been removed.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

6619. Is the flow of fresh candidates coming in now?-I cannot say that there has been any striking effect in that way. I am afraid the fact is that the Naval Medical Service does not appeal to doctors because of the rather limited range of experience they get there.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

6620. What is the number of staff of the Office of the Adviser on Education, Subhead G, Vote 5?-In this particular year there was the Adviser on Education, the Deputy Superintendent of Naval Examinations and a Deputy Inspector of Naval Schools, those latter two being Instructor Captains in the Navy, and a staff of five Clerks and one Schoolmaster of the Royal Navy.

Mr. Gillett.

6621. Where do we find particulars in these accounts in regard to these Colleges and Schools?-You will find the particulars in the Estimates for the corresponding year.

6622. Ought we not to have something more shown than appears in these

accounts?-That has never been the case in my experience, but I can hand a copy of the Estimate to the Honourable Member if he wishes. You will see that there was very little difference between the grant and the expenditure, so that you may take it that the figures in the Estimate are approximately correct.

6623. But have we not had in the Army accounts full particulars, or had we also to go to the Estimates for that information in the case of the Army?—(Mr. Fass.) That information is given in the notes to the Estimates.

6624. All the figures that we have had previously about the cost of these different Schools and Colleges were in the Estimates?—Yes.

6625. What do you estimate that costs you for each student at the Greenwich College? (Sir Oswyn Murray.) Greenwich Royal Naval College, approximate annual cost in 1927 for a student £460; Staff College £565, War College £350.

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6629. The one at Greenwich is for officers, is it not?-The one at Greenwich is for officers, and the high cost is due to the very large number of different classes that are held there for different types of officers requiring different sorts of qualification. You will understand that when you have a very large number of classes and a comparatively small number of officers taking each different class you require a great many instructors and the cost is high. At the Greenwich College we have the war course for senior officers, and the staff course, and the advanced gunnery course and the specialist gunnery course. Those are for experts. Then there are the advanced torpedo course, and the specialist torpedo course, and part of the anti-submarine course. Then there is an advanced course in signalling, wireless telegraphy, and so on. There is the advanced course in engineering, and

the qualifying course for engineer

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officers. Then there is part of the qualifying course. for all sub-lieutenants for promotion to lieutenant held there. That is the biggest class we have. There are roughly about 120 sub-lieutenants there three times a year. Then there is a for probationary second tenants, Royal Marines. There are classes for instructors, and the promotion course for medical officers. There is an advanced course for schoolmasters, who are warrant officers. There is a class for probationary assistant constructors, and there is also a class for electrical enprobationary assistant

gineers. So that you see you have something like 20 different sorts of classes going on there for comparatively small

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numbers of officers, but they are all essential because it is through those courses that we get our expert officers in the Navy.

6630. Are most of the students living at the place, or are numbers of the men going up just for a short time?-Some of them are longer courses and some of them are shorter. A good many of the courses are for three months, but some of them are six months, and some of them longer.

6631. The officers in attendance at all these Schools and Colleges remain about the same? Yes. At the present moment there are just over 230 officers at Greenwich divided over all these different

courses.

6632. That is about the normal figure? -That is about the normal figure.

Major Salmon.

6633. Is there sufficient work the whole year round for these instructors to be of a permanent character?-Oh yes. They work at very high pressure. They do not work University terms, or anything of that sort. There are very short intervals between the course. There is practically only a gap in the middle of the summera sort of school holiday. There is practically no gap whatever at Christmas or at Easter.

6634. The average class then, does not exceed 10? No, it does not. The sublieutenants class, which is at present 116, will ordinarily be about that number, and it is of course divided up into a number of different classes because no teacher could take 116. That is the biggest class. Some of the classes have only 4 or 5 in them, according to the number who are taking some of these very advanced courses.

6635. Is it an economical thing to have 4 or 5 in a class with an expensive instructor, and only a three months' course? Those are much longer courses. The classes with only 4 or 5 are the very advanced courses for the higher experts in engineering or gunnery or signalling. I do not know from what point of view you ask whether it is economical or not, since you must have these very highly trained experts.

6636. Quite so, you must have them; but what is passing through my mind is rather this. I was wondering whether you could not arrange to hold the courses

courses

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at certain times of the year when your average size of class might be larger because you would have others reaching a certain stage fit to come into the classes? -Of course for these very highly expert we only take officers who are likely to profit by them and reach the very highest standard of attainment in their profession. We do not want a great many of those. In some cases we should like rather more than we have got; we do not find we get more than 4 or 5 at a time.

6637. If I understood your figures correctly I understood you to say that the staff course cost less than some of your other courses. I should have thought that was the highest grade class?—The Staff College course, which is £565, is higher than any of the others.

6638. What is the lowest ?-The lowest is the War College course, which is £350. The War College course is for very

senior officers who of course can work a good deal by themselves.

6639. Therefore it has a larger class? -It has a larger class but a smaller number of instructors, because they can work by themselves very largely.

6640. What is the percentage of overheads that you reckon on these classes to pay for buildings and equipment?-We do not charge in any capital cost for the building in that. We have not worked it out as a percentage.

6641. Therefore most of this money actually goes in the cost of instructors' salaries? And equipment.

6642. Have you any idea how they compare to the classes held in the Army for a similar character of work?-I think they are lower in practically every case than the Army costs. I do not say that reflecting on the Army in any way, but as a matter of fact it is so.

6643. Do not the Army contribute towards the overheads of the buildings in their case?-No, I do not think they do. 6644. Nor the Air Force ?-No, I d not think so.

6645. One question on research. In your research department do you work for other Departments other than your own? One notices that there are many Departments in the Government service that have research sections.-We work in with the other Departments, and there are very elaborate arrangements to prevent overlapping. It is decided between the Departments which Department shall undertake a research. For instance, you will see on page 23, under

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