of ascertaining what is the proportion of supervisory staff to the actual telegraphists themselves?—I think we should be able to get that percentage out. Certainly we could with regard to what are known as divided offices where there is a purely telegraph staff.

520. I think it might be worth while waiting a little time in order to get the accurate information. It is more satisfactory? Yes. † May I with your leave, Mr. Chairman, correct two mistakes I made in my evidence. I said that the longest life of any telegraph apparatus was 60 years; I should have said 40 + See Appendix 60.

[Continued.

telegraph

cables

years. Underground have a life of 40 years. With regard to the loss on press telegrams, the basis and main features of the re-calculation of the press telegraph deficit was sent to representatives of the press. I said that I did not think it had been sent, but I find it was. They were not given all the details, but a fairly full statement was sent to them showing how the loss on press traffic is arrived at, giving the basis, and also a certain amount of sectional detail.

Chairman.] Those are two points bearing on the evidence which you tendered to the Committee to-day.

on

Chairman.

521. There is no Report, Sir Malcolm,

this Account, and I gather the Treasury have nothing to say on the Account?-(Mr. Phillips.) No, Sir.

522. I have only one question to put from the Chair, Mr. Ferguson-Davie.

You usually give us the exact number of Members excluding Ministers who are drawing salaries and allowances?—(Mr. Ferguson-Davie.) The number is 564.

523. What is the number of those who refuse the salaries ?-Three.

524. Just as it was before?-Yes.

15 March, 1927.]

Sir Assheton Pownall.

525. I notice a considerable excess on the telephone service. There is a footnote with regard to it. Is the same difficulty likely to arise in future? see the excess is due to extra operators' services, removals, and alterations to House telephones?-Five new boxes were installed for Members. That really

accounts for the excess.

526. It is a non-recurring item?-1 hope so.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

527. With regard to Item A.2., travelling expenses, is that item made up entirely of the travelling expenses of Members? Yes.

528. Can you say from your experience whether that is likely to be the figure in future, namely, £30,500?-It will be between £33,000 and £34,000 probably. It will be just over £33,000 this year, and we have estimated for next year £33,500.

[Continued.

rants? It means those for any previous quarter not presented for payment before the 30th June when everything outstanding has to be cancelled.

Major Salmon.

535. Under the heading of the "Department of the Speaker I observe there was an expenditure of £1,102 2s. 3d. on salaries and allowances more than was granted. I notice from the note at the foot of the page that the extra cost of temporary reporters was responsible for £945 of that amount. Why is it necessary to have temporary reporters? -It is not only temporary reporters; it includes extra payment to the regular reporters for Standing Committees.

536. Is is quite correct to describe it under the head of 66 Temporary reporters "?-Not altogether. But temporary reporters are wanted too when the House sits after 11.30. At that hour the regular staff goes off, and they have to get temporary reporters to take their place. Also for Standing Committees they have to get temporary reporters frequently when the ordinary staff cannot do the work.

537. Is the figure for this particular year under review much higher than the average? It has gone up every single year.

538. If it goes up every single year is there any reason when presenting your estimate why you do not provide for it? We have again taken more this year.

539. Did you take more for it in the year 1926 than you did in the year 1925? -No. We have, however, put on £800 this year. We have taken the sum of £2,700.

540. Therefore you have under-estimated? We have under-estimated this

current year, and we shall have to account for it next year.

541. Is it not rather a pity that whoever is responsible for making up the estimate has no regard apparently to the fact of what was spent the previous year? -I do not say that we do not do that, but the point is that it varies. Two years back it was considerably less. It was £1,900.

542. It seems to me to be rather a large increase on this small sum?-We now work on an average of three years. That is the way we estimate for these varying items.

543. You take the average of three years? Yes.

Chairman.

544. Sir Lionel, you reply on behalf of the Office of Works to a long list of accounts, the first of which deals with the Royal Palaces? (Sir Lionel Earle.) Yes.

545. Sir Malcolm, there is no report on this account, but this might be a convenient point to raise the general question regarding bulk purchases of fuel, of sanitary fittings, of gas, electricity, and water? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Yes. These three questions I wish to bring generally to the notice of the Committee, although I am not quite sure whether they are more appropriate to this Committee or to the Estimates Committee. The first is whether any steps, or further steps, could be taken to co-ordinate and centralise purchases of fuel for the Government Departments generally. As Members will remember, this particular matter was mentioned in the Report of the Estimates Committee last Session, and they recommended that coal purchases should be dealt with in future by a special Committee representing the Departments interested.

Since

then I do not think there has been any practical development, although the matter has been explored, as I understand, to some extent in consultation with the Treasury. (Mr. Watson.) There has been a considerable amount of discussion regarding the constitution of the Contracts Co-ordinating Committee. That Committee, as I dare say you know, was originally a Committee of the Contracts Officers of the three fighting services, and the Estimates Committee particularly last year, and this Committee at certain times, have suggested the additional Members should be brought on to the Contracts Co-ordinating Committee representing the other purchasing Departments of the Government service. Discussions have gone on to some considerable extent, and the Committee is now being reconstituted to the extent that Members will be taken on to the

Contracts Co-ordinating Committee from the Office of Works and from the Post Office, with a Member from the Treasury. That Committee will not, I think, always meet as a whole Committee, but it will depend to some extent on the questions that are coming up for consideration whether just the three fighting services and the representative of the Treasury shall meet, or whether the representatives of the Office of Works and the Post Office shall also attend. That question, however, will be one of those to be referred to the reconstituted Contracts Co-ordinating Committee.

So.

546. Sir Lionel, would you like to add anything? (Sir Lionel Earle.) I suppose the Committee know that there are various Committees as regards these Coordinating services. There is the InterDepartmental Joint Committee of Works and Services where we have direct representation. There is the Inter-Departmental Technical Committee of the Fighting Services on which we have power to co-opt members as required; we are not directly represented; but I believe the Treasury have under review whether we should not have direct representation on that Committee. (Mr. Watson.) That is (Sir Lionel Earle.) Then there is the Technical Co-ordinating Committee on Textile and Clothing where we have direct representation. There is the Technical Co-ordinating Committee on Brooms and Brushes on which we have direct representation. There is the Technical Co-ordinating Committee on Bedding and Bedding Materials where we have direct representation. And there is the Service Contracts Co-ordinating Committee where we have only a co-opted member at the present moment, but I fancy that there also it is being questioned whether we should not have direct representation. (Mr. Watson.)

That is so.

Colonel Henderson.] There is another question involved in this which I ought to mention, and that is, that the

15 March, 1927.]

Treasury have just appointed a Committee with Sir Malcolm Ramsay as Chairman to go into the question of the cost of agency services; and the question of the supply of furniture with regard to the Office of Works and War Office, which we dealt with on the Estimates Committee last year, hinges on this same question of the charge which one Department makes to another for services, which there has been certain complaint about. Sir Lionel will bear me out that when that Committee, on which there is as representative one of the members of the Estimates Committee, has reported, it will probably clear up a certain amount of this difficulty with which

we

are struggling at the present

moment.

Chairman.

547. That Committee, Sir Malcolm, as the Public Accounts Committee knows, deals with repayment services. That, I think, is the strict point.-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Yes.

Colonel Henderson.] If you think we should, we will of course continue to pursue on the Estimates Committee our recommendations with respect to coal and furniture. We always do pursue our recommendations until we definitely decide that something has been done, or that there is some very good reason why it should not be done. But we have not taken up the question of electric light, water, and gas. I do not know whether you would like us to do that.

Chairman.] The strict point of the matter is that Sir Lionel Earle is here at the moment to answer any questions we ask him, and then afterwards the Committee will decide on the point which Colonel Henderson has raised.

[Continued.

is paid in cash for them. It would cover certain services which the Office of Works carries out for the Army, the Air Force, or the Navy. And it would cover services done by the Office of Works to outside bodies which are not directly financed from public funds. The question, as you say, is to determine what, in addition to the prime cost of the goods or services, is to be charged in the way of overheads.

549. The other point I should like to ask Sir Lionel Earle is, what steps does he take to see that the best terms are being obtained for the supply of electricity or the supply of gas?-(Sir Lionel Earle.) Do you mean in the London area, or do you mean anywhere?

550. In any area. We will deal with London first.-We negotiate with the electrical company who supplies the particular district. Take them all, for instance. We get the very cheapest estimate we possibly can out of them. But, mind you, the whole system of electricity supply in London to my mind is not very conducive to getting the best terms, because you do not get competition. That is a matter over which I have no control.

551. The point I want to arrive at is this. You rather deal with them as individual units, that is to say, your representative when making a contract with a particular electricity supply company only makes it for the one particular place; he has no regard to the fact that you have a dozen places within that area of supply?-But I think all that district would be dealt with on the same lines.

552. Is it only that you think, or are you pretty sure that is so?-Well, you see we are practically tied. And it is so with the gas companies of the district in the same way. We get the very

best terms we can out of them.

15 March, 1927.]

reduction. Who is responsible for seeing that that is done?-The Engineers are responsible. But I think it is very difficult to say, when you are limited as regards the competition on account of the lay-out of the companies supplying certain districts, that you get the very lowest terms. It is very difficult to say that when you cannot get open competition.

I

554. That is scarcely my point. realise the disability of having very little competition in the supply of electricity, but my particular point is this. If you take the charges that an electric company or corporation make, and if will you go into them very closely, you find that the company is prepared very often to give a special contract, because your potential quantities within the district are of such a magnitude that they can afford to give you a low price.-I think that you will find that is the case. We pay We do get very special terms. infinitely less than the ordinary con

sumer.

Of

555. Do you?-Oh yes, very much less. 556. They give you the best terms that they would give to anybody who asked for the same quantity of electricity?— I should think we get better terms. course, it is very difficult to test that, but I should say that they are better terms. I am perfectly willing to show you the contract we made for the lighting of the whole of the St. James's Park area, and I think you would agree that they are very favourable terms.

557. When you talk about the St. James's Park area do you infer that Whitehall and Montagu House, and all the Government offices, would come under the same contract?-They would not come under the same contract as that for the lighting of the Mall, but the supply would come from the same company.

558. That is the whole point. If you were to take the total consumption of electricity which you use in each of the places within the area of a given authorised supplier, (a) for heating and (b) for lighting, you would, I submit, get special prices from the company if it knew that your total quantity came within certain limits which they laid down? We do not allow heating by electricity because of the expense. Would it interest the Committee if I

[Continued.

560. You have, I presume, a system of checking meters as to the amount of electricity consumed?-Not only that, but there is these accounts where the meters were found We to be all wrong in this House. found out that for 20 years we have been getting quite an exceptionally ridiculous consumption through meters being wrong. 561. Although examined periodically, they have been allowed to go wrong for 20 years?That is the company's affair, not ours.

the

meters

the

are

562. But it might have been the other way? I do not think so, because our people naturally saw that the consumption was extraordinarily low.

563. It does not seem a very happy way of dealing with the matter. What system have you in the Provinces ?-I cannot tell you. I can find out for you if you would like to know. (Mr. Buchanan.) The usual practice in the Provinces is for the buildings to be treated each on their own, but for some time past we have been considering the question of amalgamating these things. and getting better terms both from the gas companies and the electric light companies. We have succeeded to some extent in getting better terms from the gas companies, but so far we have not got much success with the electric light authorities. However, the question to which you have drawn attention is one which is under our consideration, and the matter is being pursued.

564. When did this operate from?-It has been operating during the last two years, I should think. It is now being taken up in conjunction with us by the War Department in their services. So that the matter is really a live matter, and is being considered.

565. What occurs in connection with the Excise Offices? Would they come into the same category?—The Excise Offices are our service. We may have

+ Not printed.