22 July, 1926.]

[Continued.

to reduce the cost and yet have them in reserve?-The difficulty of, as it were, sub-letting military hospitals to civil hospitals is that we might want those unoccupied beds if there were an epidemic or an outbreak of influenza, and we should have the civil population lying in the beds and we should not be able to turn them out.

7707. What is the total number of beds you had vacant?-Last year the occupied beds were 972 and the equipped beds were 1,944; just two to one.

7708. That is throughout the whole country? That was abroad. The average number of equipped beds at home is on page 60, it was 3,149 and the average number of equipped beds was 6,000; again the same percentage holds good, namely one to two.

7709. I was referring to home hospitals. I can better understand the position abroad, for the risk of an epidemic is greater?--The percentage, exactly as you imagine it, is rather higher abroad than it is at home.

7710. It would be possible, I suppose, at home, to utilise the beds for the civil population?—I should very much doubt whether that would be possible. What is being done is that the three Departments are considering how far they can take each other in as patients.

7711. So as to reduce the total number of beds? Yes. Some progress has been made along those lines.

7712. Nothing has been settled?—Yes, it has actually been settled in a good many cases; I was rather closely questioned on that by the Estimates Committee, and we were able to show. I think, that some considerable progress had been made.

Sir Fredric Wise.

7713. What about the payment of your doctors?--You are referring probably to the increase in pay of doctors?

7714. No; if I remember rightly, you pay them according to the number of beds occupied.-In just a few cases a doctor gets what is called "charge pay" in respect of his heavier administrative responsibility; it is not based exactly on the number of beds occupied.

7715. It used to be, did it not?-On the beds generally. He gets from 2s. 6d. up to 10s. a day.

7716. Whether the beds are occupied or not? Yes.

7717. You think it is still advisable to keep that in practice?-Yes, I think it is. If it is a large hospital his administrative responsibility is pretty heavy, and, of course, he has a lot of very valuable stores under his charge in a large hospital, so the fact that the beds are or are not occupied is almost a secondary part of his responsibility. 7718. What sort of salary do they approximately?-(Mr. Fass.) The old rates of pay start at: Lieutenant, unmarried £511, and married £576, that is including allowances; a Major gets £846 married, after 15 years, a Lieutenant-Colonel £1,150, and a MajorGeneral £2,000. They have been raised slightly as the result of the general in

get,

crease.

7719. They have been raised recently? -(Sir Herbert Creedy.) Yes, quite recently.

Mr. Briggs.

7720. Could you tell me the number of occupied beds and equippped beds you had in 1923-24?-Abroad?

7721. Take it at home?-4,231. 7722. 4,231 occupied ?-No, equipped; that has slightly fallen in the year under consideration; it is just 10 down.

7723. And occupied? The occupied were 2,381 in 1923-24 as against 2.328 in 1924-25; so there is a slight fall in the number of occupied beds in the year under review

7724. I think you said the fall in equipped beds was 10?-Yes. The fall is so slight that I was wondering what was the justification for this footnote about a reduction in the number of equipped beds.—(Mr. Crosland.) That was in the number of equipped beds abroad.

7726. That was abroad as well?-(Sir Herbert Creedy.) Yes; I thought you asked me about home.

7727. Was there a large number abroad?-Abroad it has fallen by nearly 300 beds.

7728. Of course, that would make a material difference. Seeing that what this Committee stressed last year was the question of holding these beds in reserve, even now you have 50 per cent. in reserve, roughly?-Yes, I think it has fallen since last year, and the whole question is now under active review again. It is reviewed more or less every year, but there is a special investigation

going on, in connection with this Interdepartmental Co-ordinating Committee, to see what reduction of beds is possible.

Mr. Gillett.

7729. How often are these beds used in peace time: the whole number of them? It would be rather difficult to say any bed not might particular throughout the year.

be used

7730. Do you ever have an epidemic which requires the use of all these beds in peace time, or are these beds being kept with a view to war?-I was looking at the figures not long ago. Sometimes, not in every hospital by any means, we get quite near the number of equipped beds on a certain number of days in the year. It varies; sometimes it may be only for two or three days, but sometimes for a considerable period. If you take the case of Netley, which is a very special hospital, you will find the numbers there quite small in the summer, but during the trooping season it would be nearly up to capacity, because it is the reception hospital for all the troops coming home from India.

7731. This is nothing to do with any idea of war, of course; it is merely for peace time.-There is a slight war margin for a small war, or the very early stages of war till you can mobilise the civil reserves, because the average civil hospital is always full.

7732. Then this figure which is put forward here is an average figure?—

[Continued

con

available were required for the veyance of food stuffs and you could not defile them with coal; there were similar explanations in all these cases.

on

7735. Paragraphs 10 and 11 deal with the use of costing and statistical records. -Paragraph 10 has been before the Committee before. The Cost Accounting is sometimes misleading because the expenditure has to be determined other than financial considerations. I noticed in one particular Command there was a hand bakery which was much dearer to operate, I think 20 per cent., than the machine bakery. The answer given by the War Office when the question was raised was that when troops go on active service they cannot make machine made bread and they must have one hand bakery to keep the men's hands in.

Major Salmon.

7736. That sounds all right in theory, but I should not have thought in practice that really works well, inasmuch as if there is an Expeditionary Force out it requires a large number of bakers over the different Sections, and therefore unless you have the same principle of hand bakeries all over the country (because you must keep them up to date in case they are wanted in an emergency) I cannot see how one or two bakeries will be of great help. (Sir Herbert Creedy.) There might be an affair on the North West Frontier, that is the difficulty.

7737. I appreciate your difficulty, which is a large difficulty.-In a war on a large scale, of course, it would not be necessary; the hand bakery would be of no good at all.

7738. I suppose as a matter of fact if your bakery was a large one it would be possible to have both, to have the hand bakery for practice work, and the machine bakery for the general work, if the turnover were large enough to warrant it. I do not know if you will consider that?-Certainly. (Mr. Crosland.) We keep Cost Accounts still of these bakeries, and they are very closely watched. (Sir Herbert Creedy.) We propose to keep Cost Accounts of the bakeries still.

Chairman.

7739. Have you anything to say on paragraph 11, Sir Malcolm? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) There is nothing very

22 July, 1926.]

much in paragraph 11; they are small matters to which I have called attention, and for the most part they have been put right.

Mr. Briggs.

7740. The irregular use of motors has been entirely put a stop to? (Sir Herbert Creedy.) Yes; that was an isolated lapse.

7741. It does not occur, you think, in any Section of the Army?-No; this was purely an isolated local occurrence.

7742. And there is no opportunity of any service man obtaining petrol for his own private use?-No, I should think the safeguards are quite clear on that.

7743. The safeguards are really good, are they?—Yes; each driver has a Log Book and he can be checked.

7744. But what is more important: has the store keeper a Log Book?-Oh yes, certainly; he takes it on charge and would have to get vouchers to support his issues.

Chairman.

ΟΙ

7745. Paragraph 12 deals with the Royal Army Clothing Factory.-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) In previous years there was a detailed statement showing the cost of production, but that has been omitted this year, for the reason, partly for the reason, that it is very undesirable to publish to the world at large the prices which the articles cost the Army. The same step was taken last year with regard to the Ordnance Factories, the detailed cost price lists were omitted. Of course, the detailed records of production are retained, and the manufacture has been cheaper this year, generally, than it was last.

[Continued.

is scarcely the right word, is it; it is not an inspection cost?-The officer is called the Inspector. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) It is the cost of inspecting and passing clothing.

7748. Do I understand it costs for inspecting clothing £273,000?—(Mr. Crosland.) Paragraphs 12 and 13 are independent paragraphs. One is with regard to the Clothing Factory and the other is inspection generally.

7749. It refers to page 86? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) That is the value of the articles manufactured.

7750. £370,000 is the value of the articles that are manufactured ?—(Sir Herbert Creedy.) The Creedy.) The Inspection

£79,000.

is

7751. It costs £79,000 to inspect £370,000 worth of articles ?-No, the inspection extends to contract deliveries,

too.

This is the Government manufactures as opposed to contracts.

7752. Could you tell us how much the contracts are that are included in this expenditure of £79,000?-I do not think I have got that figure?-(Mr. Crosland.) Under Head 5 you will find the purchase of clothing.

7753. How much are they?-They are on page 124.

7754. Is this the whole inspection for the Army? Of clothing and stores. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Of clothing stores, old and new and part worn.

and

7755. I understand that this amount is not wholly expended on the inspection of clothing?-(Sir Herbert Creedy.) No; inspection of stores and clothing. (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) The clothing manufac tured at Pimlico and clothing supplied by contractors if any; part-worn clothing in depots, demobilised stuff.

7756. That is with regard to clothing, but I understand, in addition, they do other work for this?-Which amount is that?

7757. The inspection, £79,000.-(Mr. Crosland.) They do the inspection of general stores.

7758. Victualling stores?-General stores, barrack stores, hospital stores and equipment. (Sir Herbert Creedy.) Brooms, brushes, forms, tables, chairs and so on.

7759. Do you find really that you are getting value for money for the expendi

Chairman.

7763. We have before us to-day the First Report from the Select Committee on Estimates and the following reply to a Question in the House given by the Prime Minister on the 15th July, 1926: "The Government accept the recommendations of the Select Committee in regard to the re-classification and re-grouping of Estimates and they will give effect to them, subject to some minor emendations, in next year's Estimates. The Government do not see their way to adopt the recommendations as to the future size and composition of the Committee. It appears to them that the Committee should aim at reviewing a group of Estimates each year so as to

cover the full field every four or five years and should endeavour as far as possible to complete this review before the particular group are finally disposed of in Supply. This they consider the Committee should be able to do without additional members or special facilities. In particular, they do not consider that persons outside the House should be appointed to serve on Sub-Committees, but they are prepared to arrange that a Treasury witness should attend the meetings of the Committee, and assist them so far as he can. The Government are not prepared to ask the House to accept the recommendations referred to in the last two parts of the question." Probably the easier way, Sir Malcolm, if you approve, would be to ask you, first

of all, for any comment you have to make, unless you think the Treasury should make a preliminary statement?-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) I think it would be more convenient if Sir Otto was to make a short statement just explaining the effect of the proposed change.

to

7764. Perhaps that will be convenient Sir Otto; will you do so? (Sir Otto Niemeyer.) The main change is explained in paragraph 9 of the Estimates Committee's Report; it consists solely of re-arranging the existing Votes, with the minor exception of a small item in one Vote which is transferred another; that is a thing which happens from year to year and is of no importance. What I want to make quite plain is that this scheme as it stands does not affect the single Votes in the least. The single Votes, as you have known them, and still more the Accounts resulting from those Votes, will remain as at present. The only thing that happens is that the order of the Votes is rearranged. As the Committee probably know, for something over, I think, about 35 years, the order has in its main outlines been unchanged; I am speaking now of the Civil Service Estimates. There have been accretions from time to time, and they have been added to an old classification somewhat haphazardly, and the result of this, and also of the development of the Government's business in the last 20 years, has been that the classification, as it now stands, is really rather ridiculous. You start off with a large class, Class I, of Works Services, ard one or two minor Votes; then you come to Class II, which is supposed to contain most of the functions of Government in a narrow sense, and you come later to rather confused classes of what is commonly called Social Services, education and so on. The whole entity as we have

it now has outgrown its origin, and become haphazard. For some time we have thought there was a good deal to be said for re-classifying, in a sense of returning to the original purpose, which had got overgrown from these accretions. The Estimates Committee apparently felt that also, and they put forward the scheme which is in their Report. They endeavour to rearrange the same Votes in new classes which have, at any rate, some kind of logical division. Of course, in rearranging Estimates one can choose different bases to suit different tastes. It is impossible to adopt

[Continued.

a classification which would seem entirely logical and complete to everybody, and the most that we suggest for this classification is that it is, at any rate, more logical than the existing one. The only other thing I want to say is this, that whereas the Treasury stand in agreement with the classification proposed by the Estimates Committee, we do attach great importance to whatever classification is adopted being maintained. You cannot change your classification every two or three years, and, therefore, while it is perfectly reasonable after so long an interval as 30 or 40 years, to look through your classification again, it would be intolerable to change it, I should say, even every five years, and we do not propose to do that. What we propose to do is to adopt this classification, and stick to it at any rate for a reasonable period of time-I hope for a long period of time. The classification really starts from the centre. It puts in Class I what is described here as the Central Government and Finance, the Houses of Parliament, the Legislature, the general financial organs, and various minor general offices which apply to State. Then it goes the classes of: Imperial and Foreign; Law and Justice; Education; Health; Labour and Insurance; Trade and Industry; and it puts the common services, Works, Stationery, and so on, at the end. That seems to us to be a rather more logical order in which to take it than we have now. There is a little "" Miscellaneous," class at the end called, that is for the expiring Services, and it corresponds practically to what we now call "Unclassified." It would disappear in any case in a short time.

every

on

to

7765. How far would it narrow our discussion to-day, if we have regard to the Prime Minister's announcement as to what the Government intends to adopt? I think clearly that anything the Government does not intend to adopt is so much dead material, so to speak. -Yes.

7766. And we should be wasting our time if we debated it?-Yes, I think so.

7767. Could you help us on that point? As I understand it, they adopt the reclassification, and the giving of a representative of the Treasury to the Estimates Committee; beyond that, I cannot discover any concession at all?-That is right. The Estimates Committee had