The Earl of Liverpool said, he by no means intended his motion to interfere with the motions of the noble earl, but on the contrary, thought that the greater part of, if not all the information for which the noble earl intended to move, would be useful to the consideration of the subject in the committee.

STATE OF PRISONS.] The Marquis of Lansdowne said, he had, towards the end of the last session, moved for certain papers relative to the state of the prisons of the country. Those papers had not yet been presented; but every thing, that had fallen under his own observation since the dissolution of the last parliament, relative to the subject of prisons, was of a nature to shew, that a farther inquiry into the subject was highly expedient, and all that he had heard from others had served to confirm him in this opinion. As soon, therefore, as the papers to which he had alluded should be laid on the table, he would move the appointment of a com. mittee to take them into consideration; and he would also move, that all the acts relative to the management of prisons be referred to the same committee. He was happy to find that this subject was to be taken up in another place; but when he considered the advantages their lordships House possessed for the successful prose cution of an investigation of the kind he had in view, he should not be induced, by any thing which might happen elsewhere, to abandon his intention.

cipated, to move that the documents which were in the course of preparation should, when on the table, be referred to a committee.

The Marquis of Lansdowne said, he was far from wishing to anticipate the noble secretary of state. If his majesty's ministers were desirous of taking up the subject, he should not stand in their way, but would, on the contrary, always be ready to concur with them in the course which might appear most effectual for the attainment of the important object he had in view.

CARE OF HIS MAJESTY'S PERSON

BILL.] The Earl of Liverpool having moved the order of the day, and the reading of that part of the Speech of the Lords Commissioners which related to the death of the queen, and the care of his majesty's person, proceeded to address the House on the subject of which he had given notice. The death of the queenthat calamitous event, which their lordships and the nation had deplored, and for which he had recently called upon their lordships to offer their condolence to the Prince Regent-now imposed upon him the duty of proposing a measure relative to the trust of the king's sacred person, When, about eight years ago, their lordships were called upon to consider this important question, they had judged it right that the custody of his majesty's person should be vested in the hands of one individual, and that that individual Lord Sidmouth wished to remind the should not be the person who was placed noble marquis, that the information he at the head of the government. He had moved for at the close of the last ses- thought then, and remained still of the sion comprehended the state of the pri- same opinion, that their lordships had sons for the year 1818. The accounts of come to a judicious decision. It was not course could not be made up before the a decision adopted on any principal of end of the year. Every effort had, how- jealousy of the head of the government, ever, been made to complete them, and but was one which could not fail to be the greater part were already prepared, most agreeable to that illustrious person but the whole could not be finished before himself. Their lordships then resolved to the end of the ensuing month. When the commit the custody of the king's person motion for these accounts was before their to that individual to whom, from con. lordships at the end of the last session, he nexion, character, and rank, it was most had intimated his intention to submit to proper the sacred trust should be conthe House a proposition relative to the signed. In consequence of the lamented state of the prisons soon after the meeting decease of her majesty, their lordships had of parliament, and he hoped to have had now to consider of the best means of supan opportunity of doing so before any plying her place with respect to this imother public notice should be taken of the portant trust. He believed he should ansubject. It had long been his most anxious ticipate their lordships wishes by proposing wish to see the state of the prisons fully his royal highness the duke of York. investigated; and under that impression, Whether their lordships considered the it was his intention, had he not been anti-relation in which that illustrious person

ideas of adequate retribution; and by such impunity young offenders, instead of being checked in their first departure from virtue, are suffered to advance from small offences to crimes of great atrocity. "That some jurymen submit to fines rather than act as arbiters of life and death in cases where they think the punishment of death ought not to be inflicted.

"That some jurymen are deterred from a strict discharge of their duty, and acquit guilt or mitigate the offence so as not to subject the offender to the punishment of death, and thus assume a discretion never intended to be vested in juries, and relax the sanctity of a judicial oath, upon which the integrity of the trial by jury much depends.

"That this determination by juries to oppose the severe enactments of our laws is of daily occurrence.

"That amongst other instances, a jury, rather than be instrumental in inflicting the punishment of death for larceny to the amount of 40s. from a dwelling, found a 10%. note to be worth only 39s.

"That another jury, influenced by the same motives, found two bills of exchange, value of 10. each, and eight Bank-notes, value of 10l. each, worth the same sum of 39s.

to produce them, as they depend not upon the sentiments of any individuals, but upon certain and general principles of our nature, upon the advanced state of civilization in the country, and upon the diffusion of Christianity, by which we are daily taught to love each other as brethren, and to desire not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his wickedness and live.

"Your petitioners, therefore, humbly pray, that your honourable House will take the premises into your most serious consideration, and adopt such measures as the importance of the subject requires, and as to the wisdom of your honourable House may seem meet."

Mr. Alderman Wood said:-I am sure, Sir, the House will think with me, that the petition now presented for its consideration refers to a subject of the highest importance to the honour and character of the country. The House is aware that this subject has occupied the attention of very able and experienced men, of very wise and learned lawyers, during the last half century. I need not trespass upon the attention of the House by alluding to the opinions already so generally known and approved, of the distinguished characters to whom I allude, and who have all recommended imprisonment and labour rather than death, for the punishment of crime, and the amelioration of the morals of criminals. There is not a man who hears me that does not know, either from his own experience, or from his sources of information through other authentic

"That your petitioners cannot omit to urge upon your honourable House, that even this disinclination to enforce the law is not confined to the injured parties, and to juries, but extends to the learned judges, who, impressed with a similar feeling have exercised their inge-channels, that, notwithstanding the sevenuity in discovering means by which the real value of the property stolen should not be found by the jury; and where convictions have taken place, constantly recommend a great part of the convicts to the royal mercy; and his majesty's advisers, influenced by the same anxiety to preserve human life, readily apply and easily obtain from the throne a remission of the sentence.

"That your petitioners do not apply to your honourable House with any feeling but of gratitude and respect, at the administration of the law by the learned judges, or at this exercise of the royal prerogative by causing law and justice in mercy to be executed in every judgment, but they are impelled to submit to your consideration the state of the law itself which produces evasions dangerous to the community, and which must continue

rity of our criminal code, crimes have of late been continually upon the increase, and that the application of capital punishment has been found utterly inadequate to produce the effect for which it was intended. So little effect has the denunciation of death produced upon criminals, that, some time ago, it was their practice to hold mock courts, for the purpose of deciding upon the probable cases among themselves which would terminate in the conviction of the parties; and the rest then laughed at the sort of ordeal to which they were exposed, and turned into mockery the proceedings adopted towards them. It is my practice, and indeed I am bound to do so from the nature of my magisterial duties, to visit the prison of Newgate frequently. I was there so late as yesterday, and conversed with forty convicts, who are sentenced to death,

once to give effect to the example which operates upon society. In this country no such effect is produced by the denunciation of this sentence, and the real end is in a great measure lost. I move, Sir, that this petition do lie on the table.

but not one of whom believes that he will suffer the extreme punishment of the law. They make this calculation upon very natural grounds; for, I believe, on the average, not one in thirteen suffers the full punishment which is awarded against him. This uncertainty of punishment is Mr. Alderman Waithman addressed the a great evil. I know that the fountain of House for the first time. He observed, mercy must be left to the operation of that as his worthy friend has said so much sound discretion, and cannot be governed on the subject, he would not trespass on by any very general or defined rules. the House with any discussion of the But it would be well if some system of merits of the petition, but hoped he punishment were adopted, which would might be permitted to draw their attenact with certainty upon the mind of the tion to one or two leading facts connected offender. As it is at present, the culprit, with the subject. In the first place, it from the uncertainty in which hope, and appeared that of late years crimes had ina reference to the cases of others, leave creased to an alarming degree. Such was him, makes no preparation for death; the the undoubted and incontrovertible fact. idea never enters his thoughts when he It appeared, that during the last ten years, is surrounded by large numbers who are the number of persons imprisoned in the precisely in the same predicament with various gaols of the kingdom had increased himself. I yesterday talked with some in the proportion of nearly four to one; convicts whose offences were of that class for they had increased from 4,000 annually which ought to leave them little hope of to nearly 14,000. He could further state mercy, according to the experience pre- to the House, that as far as his informasented by similar cases, and yet not one tion went, although that information was of them seemed to possess the slightest confined to the city of London, he beidea that his sentence would be carried lieved a large proportion of the persons into execution. It would be presump apprehended and taken before the magistuous of me to enter here into the cha- trates escaped with impunity, because the racter of the law and its effect as it bears magistrates felt a difficulty in committing upon particular cases. That subject, I them on account of the crowded state of am glad to find, is likely to be taken up the local prisons, and on account of the by an hon. and learned gentleman who probability of their acquittal, in conseis far better able to do it adequate justice. quence of the rigour of the penal laws. If no other person had taken up the sub- By direction of the magistrates of the ject, I should myself have made the at- city of London, a statement was annually tempt, so convinced am I of the necessity made out of the number, ages, &c. of the of an alteration in our present system. individuals committed to the different On this subject it is impossible for us not prisons in the metropolis. By the stateto feel, in common with the country, the ment for the last year, it appeared, that loss we have sustained in the death of there were, in the course of 1818, no less that great and good man, sir Samuel than 600 persons tried and convicted who Romilly. The loss of a man so well cal- were under 21 years of age. According culated to do justice to a subject of this to the best calculation it appeared, that importance, can never be too deeply de- the number of individuals under 21 years plored. I have lately visited the conti- of age who were, in the course of the nent, and inspected a number of foreign year, committed to Newgate and tried, prisons. I have seen from 12 to 1,400 exceeded 1,000. He was persuaded that convicts in a single prison. The general the House would agree with him in thinkpractice is, to doom them to hard labouring this a most alarming fact. He would for a given term of years, and the instances are rare indeed, where any of the parties, after the expiration of their confinement, return to their iniquitous prac

tices.

In Switzerland, the certainty of punishment is found also to operate in the manner in which it is intended. The criminals sentenced to death are sure to meet their fate, and therefore prepare at

not trespass on their time further than to express a hope, that the importance of the subject would force it on consideration; that the attention of his majesty's government would be called to it; that it would undergo a full investigation by parliament; and that, in the course of the present session some means would be devised to diminish this most alarming and