without comment. The gentlemen on his side of the House had refrained from preparing any lists of members for that committee, or even putting any lists into the glasses, expressly with a view of showing to the country that they would not lend their aid in deceiving their representatives by so despicable a juggle as that of a ballot, which was, in effect, nothing less than a nomination by ministers. In the course of his long experience in parliament, he had known many lists to be prepared by the opposition, but never had he seen an instance in which any of them had been successful, or of the least use. The custom he therefore thought might as well be dropped altogether, and in this respect he thought the taunt of the hon. member for Yorkshire was the less fair, because the object of the gentlemen on the opposition benches had been to undeceive the public, and to place the subject before their eyes in its proper light. Of one thing he was convinced, that there was not a man in the country who did not think the hon. and learned member one of the very fittest persons to act on that committee. Mr. Martin, of Galway, said, he had heard gentlemen on the opposition side of the House 'dwell very largely on the talents and the information of the hon. and learned member; but those qualities, in his mind, were not all that was necessary; nor would they induce him to accede to the present motion. He could conceive a gentleman at the bar, learned as a lawyer, but whom his majesty would not be advised to appoint to any judicial situation. He could conceive a case where a man might be very highly skilled in divinity, yet the ministers of his majesty would not be advised to make him a bishop. Government and the House had other considerations in view besides the appointment of the hon. and learned member; and though he would not deny him the praise, on the score of information and of talents, he would still vote against him. Precedents had been mentioned: he considered the matter should rather be decided by the discretion of the House; he felt that he had a right to use his discretion, and he would vote against the motion. Much had been said about the management of government in making out lists, but he verily believed that if government had been ever so anxious, it would have been out of their power to procure the nomination of the hon. and learned gentleman on the committee. He was not ashamed to say that government could not have induced him to vote for that appointment [a laugh, and cries of question!] Lord Morpeth spoke in favour of the motion. He said, that in 1797, he had voted for the appointment of Mr. Fox to a similar committee, although at the time opposed to that great man's political opinions; and, in the present case, he would, were he on the other side of the House, feel the propriety of voting for the appointment of the hon. and learned gentleman referred to in the motion, from a conviction of that hon. and learned gentleman's peculiar aptitude for the situation, distinguished as he was for the highest abilities and attainments. Mr. Marryat expressed his entire concurrence in all that had been said with regard to the great ability of the hon. and learned gentleman alluded to. Still he must say, that the question referred to this committee being not merely theoretical, but practical, he could not acquiesce in the proposition, that it was desirable to add the hon. and learned gentleman to that committee, as he did not conceive that gentleman to have had any practical experience. In his opinion, indeed, there were already too many theoretical, and too few practical men upon mittee. the com Mr. D. W. Harvey said, that an hon. gentleman had thought fit to say, that a lawyer without principle, and a divine without piety, were not fit to be appointed on a committee of the House. As to the hon. and learned gentleman, he was a lawyer, not only of great learning and ability, but in other respects pre-eminently qualified to investigate the subject for which the committee had been appointed. It had been said, that gentlemen of the opposition had not done their duty; if the charge were true, surely they ought now to remedy the defect as soon as possible. It struck every man as extraordinary, that a gentleman pre-eminent for talents and industry, and singularly skilled in political economy, should not have been among the first on such a committee. The question being put, "That Mr. Brougham be added to the committee," the House divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 175. Majority against the motion. 42. The result of the division was received by the opposition with a loud cheer. List of the Minority. Abercromby, hon. J. Barham, J. F. Baring, sir T. Barnett, James Becher, W. W. Bernal, Ralph Bennet, hon. H. G. Benyon, Benj, Birch, Jos. Browne, Dom. Byng, George Burroughs, sir W. Calthorpe, hon. F. Calvert, C. Carter, John Cavendish, lord G. Clifford, capt. Clifton, visc. Coffin, sir J. Colburne, N. W. R. Colclough, Cæsar Concannon, L. Crompton, Sam. Davies, T. H. De Crespigny, sir W. Denman, Thos. Douglas, hon. F. S. Ebrington, visct. Dundas, Thos. Davenport, D. Edwards, John Ellice, Ed. Euston, earl of Hughes, W. L. Morpeth, viscount Stuart, lord James Wilson, sir Robt. FINANCE COMMITTEE APPOINTED.] Lord Castlereagh rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Income and Expenditure of the country. In moving for the appointment of a committee of finance, though it was that which had so repeatedly been done within the last few years, he was far from considering what he was about to submit to the House as a matter of course. He felt that he owed to them some explanation of the reasons why he recommended it in the present instance, and to afford a view of the general outline of the plan which ministers intended to submit, and to pursue in the course of the session. They would undoubtedly expose themselves to a great deal of just reproach, if the only measure of economy they had in contemplation was that which had been occasioned by the change in the Windsor establishment. The House would, of course, be anxious to have the general estimates laid before it; and as they were embraced in a very narrow compass, it would not be necessary for him to claim their attention for any considerable length: his principal object would be to touch upon those points, the details of which would subsequently come under the notice of the committee. He wished, in the first instance, to protest against the appointment of the finance committee being considered a matter of course in each succeeding session; on the contrary, he held such annual nomination to be an abuse of one of the most important powers of the House, which ought only to be exercised upon particular and special occasions. When, two years ago, he had adopted the same course he was now pursuing, he had stated that the then condition of the country required it; and he added, what the result proved, that the country might be satisfied that there was a gradual improvement in the financial circumstances of the country, and that, ere long, a growing surplus of revenue as compared with the expenditure would be discovered. At that time, his hon. friend the member for Bramber, had expressed some alarm, because he (lord Castlereagh) had admitted, that he was not sanguine enough to hope, that, in the course of that session, the committee would be able to establish so flattering a result, by accomplishing all the objects intrusted to it. In fact, he had thought that two or three years might be required before the nation was able to ascertain, with any degree of precision, the fair bearings of its financial resources, and before an accurate balance could be struck between those resources and the annual expenditure. He now felt great confidence, that at the termination of the labours of the committee he was now about to propose, it would be found that there had been that growing surplus of which he had spoken, and that the balance in favour of the income had been created not merely by reducing the expenditure, but by the progressive advance of the various sources of revenue. His motive for moving for the committee so early was, that it might proceed with its deliberations without delay, and that the House might be in possession of a report that would show the real situation and fair prospects of the country. Most members would probably be aware, that any report relating to the comparative income and expenditure of the April quarter could not be prepared until towards the close of the session. He would much lament if the House were to separate without it; but at least, long before that period, a report applicable to the January quarter might be prepared, and the comparison, he was persuaded, would be more satisfactory: at all events, it would give a more perfect notion of our real situation in point of finances, than could otherwise be obtained. The first important point was the income of the country; and he would simply state the amount of the receipts, comparing the quarter ending on the 5th Jan. 1818, with the quarter ending on the 5th Jan. 1819. The receipts on the former were 51,665,458/., and on the latter 54,062,000l. showing an increase upon the quarter ending 5th Jan. 1819 of 2,397,000l. It was material, however, to observe, that upon the sum he had first named, there were certain arrears of war duties on malt and property considerably beyond 2,000,000, which reduced the income up to the 5th Jan. 1818, to 49,334,9271., while the arrears of the same taxes up to January last amounted only to 566,6391.; so that the produce of the permanent taxes for the latter quarter was in truth, in round numbers, 53,497,000l., being an improvement in the whole of 4,163,000l., deducting from both the amount of the arrears of each. Honourable members were likewise most probably aware, that a considerable amount of sugar duty had been admitted into the receipts for Dec. 1818, which in fact belonged to the revenue of the preceding year, and which ought, therefore, to be added to the produce of the sugar duties of 1819: this would take a considerable sum from the nett produce of 1818, and reduce it to 48,724,000l., while that of 1819 remained at 54,062,000l.; the difference, allowing for some other comparatively trifling deductions, would be 5,328,000l., or not less than an increase of 10 per cent upon the ancient permanent taxes [Hear, hear!]. It was impossible to announce to the House more encouraging prospect than this state of things afforded: the increase on a revenue on 54,000,000l. was no less than 5,300,000l. Another satisfactory circumstance, well deserving notice was, that the increase was not upon any one article that might be supposed to have taken a sudden start, but upon no less than between thirty and forty of the articles which consituted the excise account; indeed, there were only one or two articles, and those comparatively insignificant, on which there was not a sensible augmentation: on bricks and tiles for instance, the employment of which unequivocally marked the wealth of a country, there was an increase of duty nearly amounting to one half. The last committee subtracted the amount of the sinking fund, and the expenses of the nation from the actual income, thinking it a question between the operation of the sinking fund on one hand, and the increase of debt on the other: and in their last deliberation they took the best prospective view circumstances would allow of the income and expenditure of the year 1819; and they thought that they might safely assume that the income of the country would be 52,500,000l., and the expenditure 51,087,000l., leaving a nett surplus of 1,413,000l. at the end of the year. Comparing this anticipation in May last, with the fact, as it now turned out, it was obvious, that the income, instead of being 52,500,000l. was 54,062,000l. or 1,400,000l. better than had been calculated upon. As to the expendi ture, the finance commmittee had stated it at 51,087,000l.; but the estimates now before the House showed that it was only 50,442,000l., or about 650,000l. less than the sum expected. Adding, therefore, the reduction by economy of 650,000l. would meet, and the surplus would be applied to purposes of general alleviation. to the improved revenue, it appeared that the country was now in a better situation by 2,145,000l. than the former He would now touch those points on finance committee had ventured to antici- which ministers had the satisfaction of pate and adding also to that sum the feeling that subsequent reductions might 1,413,000l. on which the finance committee be affected in the present condition of had calculated, a total surplus of not less the country. He expected to be told, than 3,558,000l. was the result, applicable that in this respect the nation was more to the reduction of the debt of the nation. indebted to the good advice offered on the [Hear, hear!] Out of that the amount other side of the House than to the unin. of interest on the loan was to be provided fluenced determination of government. for. This, of course, must be taken as a He never should be disposed to slight, charge upon it; for it need not now be much less to reject, good advice; on the stated by him, that his right hon. friend contrary, he would devote himself most had no intention of proposing any addi- religiously to profit by it, to the utmost tional taxes. The interest on the loan of his ability; but the House would not amounted to 1,000,000l. which still left forget that some essential changes had 2,500,000l. of a surplus revenue. But it taken place, at home and abroad, which was to be taken into consideration, that induced ministers to think they might the revenue promised to be more produc- now carry into effect that economy, which tive than had been calculated on. Even would not have been wise or provident, in the one month of the year which had until they could see distinctly the conse already elapsed, there was an increase, quences to which it might lead: they compared with that which preceded it, of could not earlier justify taking upon 300,000l. or 350,000l. If, as might be themselves so heavy a responsibility. expected, this increase should continue, The policy of the steps they had now it would not be too much to reckon it at taken might be the subject of future dis1,000,000l. on the whole year, which cussion, but at present it was only neces would bring the surplus revenue again to sary for him to state a few important 3,500,000, applicable to the reduction facts. The finance-committee had taken of the debt. If the finance committee, the military estimate at 8,967,000l., ason examining minutely all the details, suming a decrease of 300,000l. on the should report that such was the fact, the return of the British army from the conHouse would feel ready to allow, that the tinent; for the House would be aware, great objects for which that body had that a considerable sum must be devoted been appointed had been brought to bear. to the allowances of half-pay and pen God forbid he should be understood as sions to the officers and soldiers whose asserting, that they had been brought to services were no longer required. The bear to the extent that sound wisdom committee had taken the expense of the might at a future period justify, or to the army at 8,967,000l., exclusive of the extent that was consistent even with that 300,000l.; but he was happy to state, manly vigour which had always distin- that ministers felt themselves enabled to guished the policy of this country, in take it at 8,700,000l., inclusive of the meeting the emergencies of the state; but 300,000l.; so that the difference in favour undoubtedly one great object would have of a greater saving of the public money been accomplished, under Providence, in was 567,000l., and the whole charge was the bright and cheering prospect thus covered for 267,000l. less than the financedisplayed to the nation. If tranquillity committee had calculated. On the navy were preserved, if the industry of the in- estimate, there was a reduction of habitants were unabated, if the same manly 100,000l., and the same saving in the spirit of perseverance by which they had ordnance department. There was, howlong been characterised were pursued, ever, an expense to which the attention the happy augmentation of the revenue of the House ought to be called-not of to which he had referred, would not only a permanent nature, like that of Chelsea mark the last, but succeeding years, and hospital, but temporary; and occasioned a growing surplus might terminate in a by the pay of regiments for broken pemitigation of the weight of some of the riods. It was almost always impossible most severe and oppressive taxes it was for ministers to reduce the regiments yet found necessary to continue. Thus most within their reach. Some were at the two ends of income and expenditure a considerable distance from home; a were shut, in consequence of the want of commercial treaties; in short, there was a prevailing notion, that owing to some supineness on the part of ministers, the change of cantonments was requisite, and this and other circumstances which it was not necessary to detail, occasioned an expense of about 330,000, 100,000l. being connected with the transport depart-commerce of the country had sustained ment: this expense of 330,000l. was, a severe and perhaps an irreparable however, as he had said, only temporary, shock. Yet how did the fact stand? and was all that parliament would be Did the returns at all verify the gloomy called upon to vote, connected with the conclusion? On the contrary, they di topic of military reduction.-He would rectly contradicted it, as the House now state the amount of the reduction in would perceive by a statement of the offipoint of men, taking the rank and file: cial value of the exports: he referred to the army in France, consisting of 20,126, the official value as distinguished from the had been reduced; of the troops voted real value; which, of course, fluctuated last year for home service and for the from year to year. The official account colonies, there had been a reduction of took the exports at an assumed value, 9,402, and in the artillery of 2,035, mak- and was rather to be deemed a statement ing altogether a diminution of 31,563 rank of quantity than of value. He would call and file, exclusive of officers. There was the attention of the House to that part one circumstance of which the House only of our exports which was most imought never to lose sight; and it was this portant, as it regarded the true interests -the annual expense was stated to be of the country; British produce and ma16,237,000l.; but the whole of this, nor nufactures; and the comparison would any thing like the whole of it, was not paid extend to the four last years. It was for troops actually on foot; for a large with unfeigned satisfaction he had to obpart, 4,358,000l. went to pay debts of serve, in the first instance, that the last gratitude to officers and soldiers, for ser- had been the most splendid year ever vices they had rendered their country; known in the history of British commerce so that the direct expense of the army [Hear, hear!]. It even exceeded 1815, could not be stated so high as 12,000,000l. when the commerce of the country had The pensions and other gratuities were gone beyond its predecessors to the constantly falling in, and the amount thus amount of not less than 10,000,000/-a annually saved could not be calculated rapid advance that was considered by lower than 130,000l., or 140,000l. These some persons as forced and unnatural, as rewards, although a heavy charge, were owing to temporary causes that would always paid with the utmost willingness not afterwards operate. He was obliged to the defenders of the country, by sea to make the calculation upon the three and land; but they ought not, in making first quarters of each year only, as the a calculation, to be left entirely out of the returns from the out-ports up to the 5th of January last had not yet been made out. In 1815, the official value of British produce and manufactures was 35,231,000l.; in 1816, 28,827,000l.; in 1817 (the year when it was asserted that the nation was commercially ruined, and the continent shut against us) 32,000,000l.; and in 1818, 35,325,000l., being nearly 100,000l. beyond the year 1815, the great excess of which was assigned to temporary, fallacious, and unnatural causes [Hear, hear!]. He trusted, therefore, that such a view of the state of the commerce of the kingdom was calculated to dispel the gloom which some had promoted in ignorance of our real condition: of course, he was far from wishing by such a representation to abate exertion in the same beneficial course; his object was, to remove misapprehension, and to show how mistaken those account. The noble lord admitted, that if this were a deduction of prosperity merely drawn from the alleviation of the burthens of the nation, the prospect would not be by any means so enlivening; but it was peculiarly satisfactory to trace the growing resources of the country to the industry and every thing that constituted the real and solid wealth of a people; they were an unequivocal indication of the prosperity of the great mass of the population, and of an elasticity and vigour much greater than could have been expected after the struggles the country had had to sustain. A general, but a mistaken, supposition had been entertained some short time ago, that a great deal of commercial distress prevailed; that the exports had been most materially reduced; that the ports of the continent |