Lieut.-Col. The Right Hon. SIR LESLIE WILSON, G.C.I.E., C.M.G., D.8.O., is called in; and Examined as follows: Chairman. 1. Would you prefer to read your statement to us first? I think perhaps it might save time if I ran through it shortly. My proposals are, briefly, that the House should meet for a new session in November, and before Christmas should do three things: firstly, pass the Address in reply to the King's Speech; secondly, set up the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means; and thirdly, read a second time as many as possible of the important measures forecasted in the King's Speech. The second proposal is that the whole time of the House up to Christmas should be available to the Government. The third proposal is that the session should terminate not later than the end of July. If the House met in November instead of as at present in February, it would be possible to pass the Address in reply to the King's Speech before Christmas, set up the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means, and read a second time some of the important measures forecasted in the King's Speech. This proposal would not only relieve the congested state of business at the beginning of a session and leave the time after Christmas more free for the discussion of the necessary financial business, but would enable the Standing Committees to meet early in February. I shall deal with the question of the Standing Committees a little later. 45385 It is customary for a new session to commence about the second week in February, and the approximate number of days on which the House sits until the 31st March, which is the end of the financial year, is 33. All this time, however, is not at the disposal of the Government. The largest amount of time allowed to Private Members falls before Easter and, after the ballot has been held, Tuesday and Wednesday evenings after 8.15 p.m. (counted as half-sittings) and the whole of Fridays are set apart for the consideration of Private Members' Bills and Motions. In an ordinary parliamentary week of five sittings this means that the Government has about two-thirds and Private Members about one-third of the time. Of the thirty-three working days before the 31st March, Private Members have approximately eleven (12 half-sittings on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and 5 Fridays) and the Government twenty-two (15 full sittings, 12 half-sittings, and 1 Friday). After the Debate on the Address, which usually occupies 6 sittings, the essential financial business which is required by law to be passed before the 31st March includes: Supplementary Estimates either for money additional to that already granted or for new services. The accounts for the expiring financial year must be wound up and parliamentary authority for any extra expenditure incurred since the last meeting must be obtained before the year ends. The number of Supplementaries presented during A 3 13 November 1923] Lieut.-Col. The Right Hon, Sir LESLIE WILSON, G.C.I.E. [Continued February and March in the four pre-war years and in the four post-war years differ considerably. The demands on the Exchequer arising out of the change from war to peace caused an abnormal number of Supplementary Estimates in the postwar years and therefore any guide as to the future should be based rather upon the pre-war years. It will be seen that in 1911 the number of Supplementary Estimates presented to the' House were 20; in 1912, 16; in 1913, 14; and in 1914, 14. Then we come to the post-war years. In 1920 there were no less than 66; in 1921, 35; in 1922, 28; and in 1923, 11. It is almost impossible to form any estimate which would be in any way reliable as to the time that Supplementary Estimates are likely to occupy. So much depends on the nature of the estimate and the mood of the House. In 1912 there were 16 which occupied approximately 34 sittings; in 1914, there were 14 which occupied approximately 3 sittings; in 1921 there were 35 which occupied approximately 8 sittings; in 1922 there were 28 which occupied approximately 13 sittings; in 1923 there were 11 which occupied approximately 31 sittings. Those held back owing to lack of parliamentary time or for other reasons must be presented before the financial year ends and, apart from providing the Opposition with a means for obstructing the progress of business, often raise most controversial questions. Then with regard to the Votes on Account for the Services, all grants made by Parliament are limited for use in the year for which they are given and any balances held by departments at the end of the financial year are surrendered to the Treasury. Thus it is necessary, in order to maintain the Services until the full estimates can be passed, to obtain some money votes for the Navy, Army and Air Services, and, in the case of the Civil Services and Revenue Departments, a Vote on Account. Moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on Navy, Army and Air Estimates; Committee and Report stages of one or more votes for each Service and Committee and Report stage of the Civil Services Vote on Account, occupy at least seven sittings. Then there is the Consolidated Fund Bill: A Consolidated Fund Bill is essential to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the money so granted; and two sittings must be allowed for the Second and Third Readings. Therefore a minimum of 15 sittings, which allows no time for supplementary estimates, is the least that can be allocated forDebate on the Address, 6 sittings; unknown Supplementary Estimates, an number; Moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on Navy, Army and Air Estimates, and Committee and Report stage of necessary votes for each Service, 5 (at least); Civil Services Vote on Account, Committee and Report stage, 2; Consolidated Fund Bill, 2; total 15. There now remain 7 sittings out of the 22 available to the Government, which is slender provision for Supplementary Estimates; stages of any urgent Bills; contingencies, such as: Debates on questions of the day; adjournments on matters of urgent public importance and the setting down of opposed Private business by the Chairman of Ways and Means. This time, as the records show, has on many occasions been found entirely inadequate to pass the essential busines before the 31st March and allow amply for its consideration without taking the whole time of the House, passing special Guillotine resolutions (as in 1920 and 1913) and meeting on Saturdays. I have put down here the amount of the Private Members' time which has been taken since 1911, and I will not trouble the Committee by reading it. With the exception of 1914 and 1923 a very large amount of Private Members' time has been taken to get through the necessary Government business. In 1914 the Government only took one Tuesday and Wednesday for the Address and in the last year they only took two Tuesdays and one Wednesday. Then coming back to the question of the Standing Committees, as I mentioned before, there is little opportunity for the consideration of legislation before the 31st March, unless the Government takes the whole time of the House, as under normal conditions that period of a Session is devoted mainly to general criticism of the Government and of the Estimates for the Services. The chief legislative proposals of the Government are therefore necessarily postponed until after Easter Recess, and consequently the Standing Committees do not seriously start to work until that date. Perhaps one or two urgent Bills are sent upstairs or considered on the Floor of the House and several small Bills read a second time before Easter. In 1914 two Government Bills were sent up to Standing Com the 13 November 1923] Lieut.-Col. The Right Hon. mittees, one of which was reported before Easter but not considered. In 1923 six Government Bills were sent upstairs, one received Royal Assent-it was a very urgent Bill from the Ministry of Labourone was sent to the Lords and two were reported but not considered before Easter. (In both these years Private Members sacrificed little of their time to the Government.) This delay in starting the Standing Committees does not add to the smooth working of Parliament, and it certainly makes it very difficult to avoid flooding the House of Lords with Bills about the end of July, allowing little time for their consideration and passage into law before the Summer adjournment. The increasing work of Parliament makes a big call upon the time of Members, and work in Standing Committees and in the House is a severe strain. After Easter, when Standing Committees are working at full pressure, the House is considering important Government Bills, the Budget and Finance Bill and Supply, Divisions are numerous, the sittings late, and Members are required to be in constant attendance. If the suggestion which I have made that the House should meet in November is adopted an Autumn Session must be accepted as inevitable. Even before the War an Autumn Session was not unknown-in fact, it was very much known -and the time seems far distant when it will be possible for the House to be in Session only seven months in a year. Then with regard to the termination of the Session it will be necessary in some way to fix a date for the termination of a Session, and the best possible date would appear to be about the end of July so as to avoid sitting during the Summer months and to meet the convenience of Members to enable them to take their holidays at the same time as their families. [Continued guarantee that the Summer Session would be shortened, and in fact it would probably mean prolonging it, as there would be no dead end as at Christmas when Bills which cannot be got through before the Recess are dropped. With regard to the time of holding the ballot for Private Members' Bills and Motions, the usual time of holding the ballot for priority for Private Members' Bills and Motions is at the beginning of the Session, and an alteration would obviously be necessary if the Session were to commence in November, because that must necessarily affect the time of holding the ballot. Members could ballot, of course, in November for the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings and the Friday Sittings after Christmas, but this course seems to me open to the criticism, and the very serious criticism, that the Government would not be in a position at the beginning of the Sessions definitely to announce the date of re-assembling in February. Para Then there is the other question which has never yet been settled which arises out of the proposal that the House should meet in November, and that is a question as to what Private Members' time is really allowed under the Standing Orders after Michaelmas. Standing Order 4 is the one which deals with this question. By Standing Order 4 the time allotted to Private Members is before Easter Tuesday and Wednesdays after 8.15 and Fridays; after Easter to Whitsuntide, Wednesday evenings after 8.15 and Fridays; after Whitsuntide to Michaelmas, the third and fourth Fridays; that is, when the Third Readings of Private Bills are taken; and after Michaelmas it would seem to be Wednesday evenings after 8.15 and the Friday Sittings. graph (d) of Standing Order No. 4 was originally introduced by Lord Balfour in 1902, and it proposed that after Whitsuntide Government business should have precedence at all Sittings except the third and fourth Fridays after Whitsuntide. There was at the time considerable criticism on the ground that the rule was not limited, and Lord Balfour accepted an amendment to add "until Michaelmas." Since that Standing Order was passed whenever an Autumn Meeting has been held Private Members' time has never been given; the Government has always put down a Motion to take precedence for their business. It would is therefore seem no if this suggestion A 4 The Select Committee on Procedure which was set up in 1913 and 1914 made recommendations similar to these proposals except that the Committee recommended the disposal of Supplementary Estimates before Christmas instead of considering legislation, and that the Session should end not later than the 15th July, and suggested a Standing Order to this effect. It should be noted that both Mr. Asquith and Lord Ullswater (then Mr. Speaker Lowther) were of opinion that the meeting of the House in November would be 45385 13 November 1923] Lieut.-Col. The Right Hon. Sir LESLIE WILSON, G.C.I.E. approved that it would be desirable and necessary to amend Standing Order No. 4 (d) by leaving out the words "until Michaelmas " and inserting in their place "until Christmas." 2. We are very much obliged to you for coming and devoting your time to this matter and especially in view of your almost immediate departure. I am sure I am expressing on behalf of the Committee our general thanks to you for the trouble that you have taken and the time that you have spared. You will not think it amiss of me if I ask you a few questions upon this? Certainly not. 3. First of all, I would like to know, are you putting this claim before us in your individual capacity, or as representing any body of persons, or His Majesty's Government?--In my individual capacity. 4. Then might I ask how much experience of the House of Commons have you had? I got in in 1913; I have been 10 years in the House with the interval of the War. 5. How much experience as Chief Whip? -I have just 2 years. 6. What is the particular object of your suggestions? Is it to give more time for. Government Bills, or more time for Private Members' Bills?-To give more time for Government Bills and to give more time for the discussion of the finance of the country; also, one of the main objects is to get the Standing Committees working at an earlier date at the beginning of the year; and one of the principal objects is to try and co-ordinate the holidays of Parliament with the ordinary holidays of the individual in the country. 7. You do not favour longer Sessions than we have been enjoying lately?-No. 8. Are you in favour of shorter Sessions? I think if you accept this proposal you must inevitably have an Autumn Session. There has always been a possibility that you might avoid an Autumn Session, but in past years the hopes that this would be done have seldom been fulfilled. My proposals would mean that you must do away with any hope that you would not have an Austumn Session and the House must meet in November every year. 9. Have you in your mind any definite length of Session as being the proper normal length of the Session?-The House would meet probably about the 10th November; it would sit to within a few [Continued days of Christmas, depending on what day Christmas fell, would meet again, probably in the last fortnight or 10 days in January, and would rise by the end of July, with the usual vacations at Easter and Whitsuntide, which would depend on the amount of business to be done-probably a week or 10 days. 10. That means a Session of eight months from start to finish and a recess of four months?-Yes, but the benefit, to my mind, would be that the business men who would come to the House would know definitely that they would have August, September and October quite clear, and they could make their business arrangements. It would also be a great benefit, speaking from the Chief Whip's point of view, because August is one of the most difficult months to keep Members in the House; they all want to go away. 11. As you have mentioned, my objection to your scheme is that you get no security that you do get your August, but I will come to that later; I just put that in as a caveat. Is it not really the fact that the length of a Session depends upon the will of the Government to get a certain amount of business through; that a Government can always have either a short Session or a long Session, as they desire? -Yes, there is a great deal in that, but in these days, when there seems to be, year after year, more legislation necessary, it does not seem to be possible that any Government is able to achieve a short Session. The success of this proposal must depend on the Government being prepared with their main legislation before the Sessions open in November, so as to get the Second Readings of their main Bills before Christmas so that the Standing Committees can start work immediately on the reassembly of the House in January. 12. I will follow that up. You say the Government will have to be prepared with the chief measures of the Session at the time that the House meets?—Yes. 13. How will those be prepared by the Government?-They will have to be prepared in September and October. 14. That is during the recess?-Yes. 15. When will the Government get any recess? I think they will get just as much recess as they get now. 16. After all, during the Autumn the Government do get the advantage of their attention being confined to administration, and the preparation of Bills, I think you know, does not commence until the 13 November 1923] Lieut.-Col. The Right Hon. Sir LESLIE WILSON, G.C.I.E. Autumn?-I presume that the Government could have their proposals in rough by the end of the Session; these would be worked out in detail by the Departments concerned in August and September, and therefore they would have August and September for recess. The Cabinet Com mittees, or whatever Committee is going to decide on the actual Bills, would meet in October, and the Bills would be ready in November. 17. Then when will the Departments get a recess? They obviously cannot take a recess while Parliament is sitting, and, according to you now, they will be employed during August and September in preparing the first class measures, and in October in discussing them with the Cabinet Committees; when will they get any recess?-I think they will be able to manage to get August off. 18. We shall hear some of them later and see what their views are about that. You realise that the Lords are interested in this matter in getting the important Government Bills up to the House of Lords in time for them to discuss them?Yes. 19. You think this proposal will arrive at that? As I stated in my main evidence, I think it is one of the principal advantages of the proposal. If you get the Second Readings before Christmas they will be taken in Committee immediately after Christmas by the Standing Committees of the House of Commons, and you will be able to get the Report Stage and Third Readings over very likely by Easter, at the very latest by Whitsuntide, and give much more time than is given at the present moment. There is the greatest difficulty now to prevent flooding the House of Lords with legislation towards the end of July. It is one of the greatest difficulties the Chief Whips have to contend with. 20. Have you grasped what the cause of that is?-Generally because Parliament is so occupied with the work which I have detailed which is done before Easter-the financial work-and the days which are required for the discussion of important subjects, that it is almost impossible to get the Second Readings of Bills taken before Easter. 21. Is that the reason why all these first class measures now come up to the House of Lords at so late a period of the Session that under our present arrangement Supply is being taken by the House of Commons during the whole of the Session, whereas in the old days Supply [Continued was always taken at the conclusion of a Session, and whilst Supply was being taken in the Commons the big first class measures which had already passed the House were being discussed in the Lords; have you grasped that that is the real explanation of the trouble which has occurred? Yes. Of course, the change of time causes much more time for discussion of the financial measures, and much more time is taken up by Supplementary Estimates. 22. I am not talking about the Supplementary Estimates. In the old days until these changes of rule took place all Supply was put off until the end of the Session, and then we used to sit for a month, six weeks, or sometimes two months taking Supply day by day, day by day, until it was all concluded. During that time the Lords were discussing the big measures which had gone up to them before Supply was taken in the Commons. Is not the reason that the big measures now get so late to the Lords that Supply, instead of being all taken at the end of the Session, is taken throughout the whole length of the Session, and therefore the big measures get postponed in the Commons?-I think it is very likely, but of course I am dealing with the Standing Orders as they are at the present time. 23. Oh, yes. You do not contemplate the first-class Bills being sent to Standing Committees, do you? You would not send a Home Rule Bill or a Welsh Disestablishment Bill to a Standing Committee?-No. The measures forecasted, as I said, in the King's Speech-not a Home Rule Bill, but the ordinary larger Bills like the Railways Bill and other Bills of that description, or any big measure dealing with insurance, naturally would not be kept on the Floor of the House. It is very seldom that you now keep a measure on the Floor of the House, unless it is non-controversial and can be passed very quickly without the trouble of sending it to Committee, or a very first-class measure such as the ones you indicate. 24. Those are the ones which the House of Lords, as I understand, are anxious to get up to them, but your scheme will not help forward what you call the very first-class measures which are probably highly contentious?-I do not know that it would not really; I think it would. You would probably be able to give a great deal of time to a first-class measure before Christmas if you had a |