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Tuesday, 20th June, 1922.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee.

Mr. Hugh Edwards.

Sir Rowland Blades.

In the unavoidable absence of Sir CHARLES HIGHAM, Sir ROWLAND BLADES was called to the chair.

Mr. W. R. CODLING, C.V.O., C.B.E., was further examined.

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At the request of Sir CHARLES HIGHAM, Sir ROWLAND BLADES continued to act as Chairman for this meeting of the Committee.

Mr. W. R. CODLING, C.V.O., C.B.E., was further examined.

[Adjourned sine die.

EXTRACT FROM PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. SESSION 1923.

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DRAFT SPECIAL REPORT, proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read the first time as follows:-

The Select Committee appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in the arrangements for the Official Report of Debates, and to inquire into the Expenditure on Stationery and Printing for this House and the Public Service generally, have agreed to the following Special Report:

1. Your Committee, having ascertained that no Report was published on the evidence produced before the former Committee, in the First Session of 1922, desire to publish the evidence which was produced before that Committee and which has been referred to Your Committee, and in accordance with precedent to make some comment upon the evidence.

2. Your Committee note that the gross total of the estimate for the ordinary services-Stationery and Printing-amounted to £3.454.937 for 1922-23 as compared with £5,019,914 for the year 1921-22, showing a reduction of £1,565,007. Of this reduction £280,000 represented a further decrease in the cost of printing Registers, etc., under the Representation of the People Act, in addition to the decrease of £400,000 which took

place between the estimate of 1920-21 and that of 1921-22 for the same subhead. Of this sum of £280,000, £30,000 represented the annual cost of the Registers for Southern Ireland, which will in future be borne by the Irish Free State. The remaining £250,000 represented, in the first place, the advantage obtained by the Stationery Office in securing better prices, on the last occasion on which the contracts were put up to tender, the full extent of which could not be foreseen when the estimates for 1921-22 were prepared. Another factor in the reduction of the total cost was a fall of wages in the printing trade.

3. It would appear that many important printing items, including the Telephone Directory and the Parliamentary Debates, were given to the State Printing Works without tenders being invited from private firms, and it will be readily seen that the total loss can only be known when the cost of all work at Harrow is compared with prices quoted by

contractors.

4. Your Committee are of the opinion that the details of expenditure of Departments on printing and stationery should be printed in the Estimates, as was the practice before the War.

Question, That the Draft Special Report proposed by the Chairman be read a second time paragraph by paragraph, put and agreed to.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 agreed to.

Paragraph 3.

An amendment made, in line 4, by leaving out all the words from the word "firms" to the end of the paragraph and by inserting the words "Your Committee note the references made to the State Printing Works in the Report for 1921 on Government Trading and Commercial Services by the Auditor General, in which it is stated that the loss for 9 months amounted to £32,839 "—(Viscount Ednam)—instead thereof.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 4.

An amendment made, at the end, by adding the words "The Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports, Session I of 1921, in their Report dated 11th August, also recommended this course."-(Sir Rowland Blades.)

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

New paragraph brought up and read the first time as follows:

"Your Committee have ascertained that it is still the case that no State Department receiving stationery or printed matter from the Stationery Office is informed of the cost. Your Committee are of opinion that the absence of this knowledge is detrimental to good management and economy.

"They therefore again recommend, as in 1921, that a detailed account of the cost of each completed order for printing and stationery supplied by the Stationery Office to any Department of State shall be rendered to that Department within fourteen days of delivery."'-(Sir Rowland Blades.)

Motion made and Question, That the proposed new paragraph be read a second time, put and agreed to.

Proposed new paragraph added to the Report.

Question, That this Report, as amended, be the Special Report of the Committee to the House, put and agreed to.

Ordered, To Report together with the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee in the First Session of 1922, and referred to the Committee by Order of the House, and Appendices.

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LIST OF WITNESSES.

Thursday, 23rd March, 1922.

Mr. W. R. Codling, c.v.o., C.B.E.

...

Thursday, 30th March, 1922.

Mr. W. R. Codling, c.v.o., C.B.E.

Thursday, 6th April, 1922.

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Tuesday, 20th June, 1922.

Mr. W. R. Codling, c.v.o., C.B.E.

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Thursday, 20th July, 1922.

Mr. W. R. Codling, C.v.O., C.B.E.

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68

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Mr. W. R. CODLING, C.V.O., C.B.E., called; and Examined.

The Chairman read the following letters from the Rt. Hon. T. J. Macnamara, Minister of Labour, addressed to Lieut.Colonel Archer-Shee :

Ministry of Labour, Montagu House, Whitehall, 29th September, 1921.-Dear Archer-Shee, I should like to call your attention to paragraph 3 of the Report of the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports, which contains the following comment on my Department: 'In this connection the official who came before the Committee on behalf of the Ministry of Labour stated that the recommendation in your Committee's Report of last year, which was published in July, had not been brought to his notice until March, 1921. Your Committee feel that their recommendations will have little value if they are not even brought to the notice of the Ministers and the responsible officials of great public Departments until several months after they are made, and they would once more emphasise the urgency of their recommendation as to the appointments of those Committees in view of the greatly enhanced cost of stationery.' This statement is borne out by paragraph 413 of the evidence. But I feel that, in justice to my Department, I should call your attention to the statements made by the official witness, Mr. A. W. Watson, Director of Establishments in this Ministry, in paragraphs 400 and 401 of the evidence given on the 14th April last. These statements indicated very definitely the steps taken by the Ministry to secure economies in the matter of the printing and stationery work of the Ministry, and moreover, informed your Committee that

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a Departmental Committee, of the kind recommended by you in your Report of 1920, had actually been set up in the Ministry of Labour in January, 1921. As a matter of fact, a Committee (known as the Records Committee) with a similar object but somewhat differently constituted, had actually been in existence in the Ministry of Labour since December, 1919; and reference to the fact of this Committee's existence was also made by Mr. Watson in his evidence before you. As I understand it, the correct procedure for dealing with Reports by your Committee is for the Stationery Office to bring them to the notice of the Treasury in the first instance. In point of fact, I understand that the Establishments Department of the Treasury (the Department responsible for general questions affecting all Government Departments) called the attention of my Department to the various recommendations made in your Report at the end of last year, and these were discussed at a meeting of the Establishment Officers' Conference at the Treasury on the 11th January last. Mr. Watson's Deputy was present at that meeting, and immediately. after the meeting Mr. Watson obtained authority for the setting up of a Stationery Committee (with which the previous Records Committee was merged) on the lines recommended in your Report. He did not, however, as a matter of fact, actually see your full printed Report until some weeks later. In view of these facts, and whilst in the most absolute spirit appreciating the complete freedom of your Committee to comment on the evidence which was before them, I cannot help

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Tuesday, 20th June, 1922.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee.

Mr. Hugh Edwards.

Sir Rowland Blades.

In the unavoidable absence of Sir CHARLES HIGHAM, Sir ROWLAND BLADES was called to the chair.

Mr. W. R. CODLING, C.V.o., C.B.E., was further examined.

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At the request of Sir CHARLES HIGHAM, Sir ROWLAND BLADES continued to act as Chairman for this meeting of the Committee.

Mr. W. R. CODLING, C.V.O., C.B.E., was further examined.

[Adjourned sine die.

EXTRACT FROM PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. SESSION 1923.

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DRAFT SPECIAL REPORT, proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read the first time as follows::

The Select Committee appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in the arrangements for the Official Report of Debates, and to inquire into the Expenditure on Stationery and Printing for this House and the Public Service generally, have agreed to the following Special Report:

1. Your Committee, having ascertained that no Report was published on the evidence produced before the former Committee, in the First Session of 1922, desire to publish the evidence which was produced before that Committee and which has been referred to Your Committee, and in accordance with precedent to make some comment upon the evidence.

2. Your Committee note that the gross total of the estimate for the ordinary services-Stationery and Printing-amounted to £3.454,937 for 1922-23 as compared with £5,019,944 for the year 1921-22, showing a reduction of £1,565,007. Of this reduction £280,000 represented a further decrease in the cost of printing Registers, etc., under the Representation of the People Act, in addition to the decrease of £400,000 which took

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