30 March 1922]

253. Is there a saving there in wages? -Yes.

254. Is that the amount of £74,000?It goes to make that up with the reduction in the clerical staff.

255. How much of the saving in salaries and wages applies to these 948 people?I am sorry; I have not got the details of that here.

256. What are these reductions in? What else is there besides your clerical and administrative staff and your warehouse staff? What else is there that goes under the head of wages and salaries ?There is my technical staff.

257. Are they permanent or temporary?-Under normal conditions they are permanent. At the present moment there are a certain number of temporary people.

258. How many of those are there?-I have 97 permanent at the present moment, and 52 temporary.

259. Is that the whole of your staff other than what we would call printers? -Yes, except a staff of 217 who are classed as clerical. They are duplicating operators in the central duplicating establishment in London. They are not entitled to superannuation rates.

260. Are they permanent ?-No, they are temporary.

261. So that you employ now, outside of printers, a staff of over 2,000 people in the Stationery Office ?-That is so.

262. And on those 2,000 people this year you have made a saving of, roughly, £74,000?—Yes. Of course I am losing some of that staff on the 1st April, and I am losing the cost of their salaries and wages.

263. Why is that-less work?-No; that is the Dublin establishment which, on the 1st April, goes over to the Provisional Government, in allegiance and in salaries and wages.

264. Out of this saving, what does the Irish side of it amount to?-It amounts to £10,411 in salaries and wages.

265. Therefore your saving is, roughly, £64,000 in salaries and wages for 1922-23 on this staff of, roughly, 2,000?—Yes, and if you add the reduction on account of the loss of the Dublin office, it is £74,557.

266. How many of those 2,025 people on April 1st will leave your employ and go over somewhere else, to the Irish Office, or wherever it may be?-I could not say offhand. I do not remember exactly what the Dublin establishment is. It is fairly small.

[Continued

267. Then, on a staff of 2,000 people, you have been able to save in wages and salaries roughly £74,000?-That is so. 268. Now carriage and transit?-There is a decrease there of £15,000.

269. Why is that?-The reduction in supplies will entail less carriage.

270. Do you watch to see that Departments are not ordering things as they did in the past, and do you keep an ultrawatchable eye, and if they are exceeding what is reasonable under the Geddes Report are you bringing the particular attention of the Treasury to it?-That is being done.

Mr. Bowerman.

271. With regard to carriage, have you dispensed entirely with contractors, so far as London is concerned? In other words, are you doing your own cartage? -I am doing my own cartage to a certain extent, but to a certain extent I employ a contractor.

272. Have you increased the number of the Stationery Office vehicles?-No.

Chairman.

273. Are you going to?-I shall not increase them.

274. Will you decrease them if you have less to ship and you are going to save all that money in shipment?-Possibly. It may first come on the contractor's side of the cost.

275. You do not know yet where you are going to make the reduction?-I do not know yet.

276. Then how do you know you are going to make it?-Because I estimate that there will be less stuff to carry. 277. This is only an estimate?-All this is an estimate.

Sir Cecil Beck.

278. In that way you reckon £75,000 instead of £85,000 ?-That is so.

279. The figure is a very big figure compared with 1914, is it not? It was under £9,000, and it is now £75,000?— Yes; that is partly explained by the fact that there has been a change of system. All my provincial and foreign carriage was paid by the consignee, but since 1914 there has been a change made by which I, as the consignor, pay for all the stuff that I send to the public service.

280. That is a very interesting point; I think you ought to have brought that.

30 March 1922]

out? That has been brought out in the past.

Chairman.

281. The figures are astonishing. suppose you do not anticipate ever getting back to anything like the 1913-14 figures for the Stationery Office?-When the conditions in this country have got back to pre-war conditions in regard to cost and everything else the Stationery Office will follow suit.

282. There are so many Departments being abolished that you had during the war period, like the Food Ministry, and National Service and Recruiting and so on, which involved enormous staff, naturally? As a matter of fact, the Stationery Office since 1914 has taken on so many new services of a general nature that I do not suppose it would ever be possible to get the Stationery Office back to what it was.

283. In 1913-14 the Government printing office was not in being, was it?-No. 284. Therefore you placed all your printing out?—Yes.

285. And you were able to do it at £54,000 for cost of wages and salaries, it says here on page 115? That is my ordinary salaries and wages in the Stationery Office.

286. Is not the other?-I thought you were talking then about the cost of printing.

287. I am. I am just going back on that point for one moment, to ask you this. If in 1913-14 you placed all your work out and it cost you £54,000, and today it costs you £389,000, if you were not doing Government printing at all today, and you were placing all your orders out, your salaries and wages would be very low; they would probably not be £54,000, but, say, £100,000?-I do not think it would affect the question at all whether I do the printing myself or whether the printing is done out, so far as salaries and wages of the Stationery Office are concerned. The large increase in the wages and salaries in the Stationery Office is the increase in the general work undertaken for Departments, which was not done before; for instance, the general distribution of printed forms for all Departments is now carried out by the Stationery Office instead of every Department doing its own. 288. Why was that change made?Because it means that there is one central staff engaged instead of every Department engaging a separate staff, sometimes slack and sometimes busy.

By

[Continued

pooling it in one department I can always keep the staff busy.

289. The cost of what you have sent them is not credited to the Departments concerned?-For instance, supposing it cost one office £1,000 a year to do it, and to-day you are doing it for £200, that is not charged back to them as £200 in their figures?-No, it is all here as one lump sum for the Stationery Office. If I may say so, the Committee will find set out, in to Question 614 of last year's evidence, a statement showing the increase in the general functions of the Stationery Office, postwar as compared with pre-war.

answer

290. The chief point which we were concerned with at the last meeting was salaries and wages. We thought that was the biggest item.

Sir Cecil Beck.] Have you considered the Parliamentary Debates and Records? That seems to be a very big jump, from £11,000 to £35,000?

Chairman.] Are you saving there on the reduced cost of paper and printing?

Sir Cecil Beck.

291. That seems a parallel item exactly for 1913-14 and 1922-23?-There is the increased cost of printing and paper on the same service.

Chairman.

292. This year it is going to be considerably less?-It will be to a certain extent less, because of the reduction in printers' wages.

293. And paper?-Paper I do not think will be any cheaper in the coming year. So far as my purchase is concerned, I think it is about as low as it can get.

Major Cope.

294. Did not the institution of Grand Committees for considering Bills, instead of those Bills going before the House at the Committee Stage, entail a very large increase under this head?-Yes, the institution of Grand Committees, and Standing Committees, largely increased the cost of printing the Debates.

Chairman.

295. Are they still continuing that?— Yes, I think so.

Major Cope.] Practically every Bill goes to Grand Committee.

Sir Cecil Beck.] A lot used to before the war. The big Bills did not go up

30 March 1922]

like they do now; that is the only difference, I think.

Witness.] Proceedings of those Committees before the war, I believe, were not reported verbatim and printed as part of the Debates of the House.

Chairman.

296. You do not suggest that you can make any saving this year in that particular item?-I am afraid that is a matter for this Committee rather than for me.

297. But from your point of view you can make no saving on printing there. Provided you get the same amount of work, it is going to cost the same amount of money?-Yes.

298. And there will be no saving there? -No; and if I get more work, it will cost more money.

299. Then printing and binding "Gazettes," from £5,000 to £26,000. That is more printing and binding, I take it? Yes.

300. Not more expense for the mere printing and binding; there is a big increase, of course, for higher wages?-Yes, there is.

Sir Cecil Beck.

301. It is much more work that is really necessary?—Yes.

Chairman.

302. Paper: 1913-14, £413,000; 192122, £1,400,000, and a million pounds in 1922-23. Will you be able to save anything on that million pounds?-I have reduced that by £200,000.

303. How about your stock of paper— that large stock you bought and stored somewhere in the north that we heard about last year?-That is being used.

304. Are you buying paper now?-Only where I am obliged to. If I have any war stocks left (I have not much now) I use them up first.

305. You are not stocking paper now; you are buying in the open market; it cannot rise, can it?-I never make running contracts for paper.

306. But you bought a tremendous lot of paper at one time, did you not?-I am always buying paper.

307. What stock of paper do you carry all the time?-I am aiming, as a postwar system, to carry not more than three months' stock of paper on the average all through.

308..What does that stand at, as amount, roughly?-Roughly about quarter of a year's supply, £200,000.

an

a

[Continued

319. What is the percentage of printing that you do as compared with what you put outside to-day?—I do at present about a quarter of my own printing.

320. Might we see, at the next meeting, estimates for a printing job which you have put out and your own estimate for the same job, where you have decided to do it in the Government printing works rather than give it to an outside printer? Yes.

321. You would ask for estimates from printers for a job and when you get them in, if you found that your own Department could do the printing more cheaply, you would do it; I take it that is the logical thing to do?-Yes.

323. Can we see one or two estimates of that sort? Of course most of my printing work is done under large running contracts and there are not separate estimates for each individual job, unless it is a special thing which is not covered by any contract.

30 March 1922]

on,

282. There are so many Departments being abolished that you had during the war period, like the Food Ministry, and National Service and Recruiting and so which involved enormous staff, naturally?-As a matter of fact, the Stationery Office since 1914 has taken on so many new services of a general nature that I do not suppose it would ever be possible to get the Stationery Office back to what it was.

283. In 1913-14 the Government printing office was not in being, was it?-No. 284. Therefore you placed all your printing out?—Yes.

285. And you were able to do it at £54,000 for cost of wages and salaries, it says here on page 115? That is my ordinary salaries and wages in the Stationery Office.

286. Is not the other?-I thought you were talking then about the cost of printing.

287. I am. I am just going back on that point for one moment, to ask you this. If in 1913-14 you placed all your work out and it cost you £54,000, and today it costs you £389,000, if you were not doing Government printing at all today, and you were placing all your orders out, your salaries and wages would be very low; they would probably not be £54,000, but, say, £100,000?-I do not think it would affect the question at all whether I do the printing myself or whether the printing is done out, so far as salaries and wages of the Stationery Office are concerned. The large increase in the wages and salaries in the Stationery Office is the increase in the general work undertaken for Departments, which was not done before; for instance, the general distribution of printed forms for all Departments is now carried out by the Stationery Office instead of every Department doing its own.

288. Why was that change made?Because it means that there is one central staff engaged instead of every Department engaging a separate staff, sometimes slack and sometimes busy. By

[Continued

pooling it in one department I can always keep the staff busy.

289. The cost of what you have sent them is not credited to the Departments concerned?-For instance, supposing it cost one office £1,000 a year to do it, and to-day you are doing it for £200, that is not charged back to them as £200 in their figures?—No, it is all here as one lump sum for the Stationery Office. If I may say so, the Committee will find set out, in answer to Question 614 of last year's evidence, a statement showing the increase in the general functions of the Stationery Office, postwar as compared with pre-war.

290. The chief point which we were concerned with at the last meeting was salaries and wages. We thought that was the biggest item.

Sir Cecil Beck.] Have you considered the Parliamentary Debates and Records? That seems to be a very big jump, from £11,000 to £35,000?

Chairman.] Are you saving there. on the reduced cost of paper and printing?

Sir Cecil Beck.

291. That seems a parallel item exactly for 1913-14 and 1922-23?-There is the increased cost of printing and paper on the same service.

Chairman.

292. This year it is going to be considerably less?-It will be to a certain extent less, because of the reduction in printers' wages.

293. And paper?-Paper I do not think will be any cheaper in the coming year. So far as my purchase is concerned, I think it is about as low as it can get.

Major Cope.

294. Did not the institution of Grand Committees for considering Bills, instead of those Bills going before the House at the Committee Stage, entail a very large increase under this head?-Yes, the institution of Grand Committees, and Standing Committees, largely increased the cost of printing the Debates.

Chairman.

295. Are they still continuing that?— Yes, I think so.

Major Cope.] Practically every Bill goes to Grand Committee.

Sir Cecil Beck.] A lot used to before the war. The big Bills did not go up

30 March 1922]

like they do now; that is the only difference, I think.

Witness.] Proceedings of those Committees before the war, I believe, were not reported verbatim and printed as part of the Debates of the House.

Chairman.

296. You do not suggest that you can make any saving this year in that particular item?-I am afraid that is a matter for this Committee rather than for me.

297. But from your point of view you can make no saving on printing there. Provided you get the same amount of work, it is going to cost the same amount of money? Yes.

298. And there will be no saving there? -No; and if I get more work, it will cost more money.

299. Then printing and binding "Gazettes," from £5,000 to £26,000. That is more printing and binding, I take it? Yes.

300. Not more expense for the mere printing and binding; there is a big increase, of course, for higher wages ?-Yes, there is.

Sir Cecil Beck.

301. It is much more work that is really necessary?—Yes.

Chairman.

302. Paper: 1913-14, £413,000; 192122, £1,400,000, and a million pounds in 1922-23. Will you be able to save anything on that million pounds?-I have reduced that by £200,000.

303. How about your stock of paperthat large stock you bought and stored somewhere in the north that we heard about last year? That is being used.

304. Are you buying paper now?-Only where I am obliged to. If I have any war stocks left (I have not much now) I use them up first.

305. You are not stocking paper now; you are buying in the open market; it cannot rise, can it?-I never make running contracts for paper.

306. But you bought a tremendous lot of paper at one time, did you not?-I am always buying paper.

307. What stock of paper do you carry all the time?-I am aiming, as a postwar system, to carry not more than three months' stock of paper on the average all through.

a

308..What does that stand at, as an amount, roughly?-Roughly about quarter of a year's supply, £200,000.

[Continued

309. Do you buy all that paper yourself? Yes, direct from the mills. 310. At competitive prices?—Yes. 311. Do you contract for paper to be made? Do you buy what they have, or is it made for you?—I put out a specification and get tenders.

312. How many mills compete all of them?-Most of the British mills that make paper that I want compete.

313. You do not buy paper of foreign countries at all, do you?—Only very specialised papers that cannot be obtained in this country.

314. What are they for?-I cannot think off-hand of any of them, but at one time I think we could get special carbon papers only from abroad-from the United States-but I believe they are now produced in this country. The amount of paper purchased from abroad is very small.

319. What is the percentage of printing that you do as compared with what you put outside to-day?-I do at present about a quarter of my own printing.

320. Might we see, at the next meeting, estimates for a printing job which you have put out and your own estimate for the same job, where you have decided to do it in the Government printing works rather than give it to an outside printer?—Yes.

321. You would ask for estimates from printers for a job and when you get them in, if you found that your own Department could do the printing more cheaply, you would do it; I take it that is the logical thing to do?-Yes.

323. Can we see one or two estimates of that sort? Of course most of my printing work is done under large running contracts and there are not separate estimates for each individual job, unless it is a special thing which is not covered by any contract.