16 July, 1924.]

[Continued.

Mr. Gibbins.

212. It comes up to the River Severn, does it?-Up to the middle of the River Severn, right up to Powick Bridge.

Chairman.

213. We have only very small green strips shown here?-Included in the Manor are three small pieces of the area which has been coloured on the deposited plan. If I may say so, they are not parts of Old Hills Common proper, they are the two arms on the north-east and the north-west, and a small portion of the land on the east of the coloured land; it is due west of Pixham Ferry.

214. What is the extent of it; have you

(The Witness

any idea?-Roughly speaking, without committing myself, under 10 acres.

215. You claim that that Manor vested in the Trustees whom you represent?Certainly.

216. You are asking for the draft Order to be altered so as to allow of one representative for your Manor on the Board of Conservators?—Yes.

217. Is there anything else you would like to say?-No, nothing.

218. You heard the suggestion which I made to Mr. Hastie; whether it would facilitate the granting of the Order if it was made quite clear that the residents of the district would have access to the common?-Quite.

219. You would be prepared to advise your clients to that effect?-My clients would be quite agreeable to that. withdrew.)

220. You live at View Farm, Powick? -Yes.

221. You are Chairman of the Parish Council? Yes.

222. And you are a farmer?—Yes. 223. What evidence do you wish to give?

The first point is that we consider that this affair of applying for the Provisional Order has proceeded in an irregular manner, and I am sure that the whole of the Parish practically would have strongly petitioned against it, and have objected if we had had the second meeting which was promised by Mr. Dobson. Mr. Dobson distinctly told us that that meeting would be held, and we have been naturally waiting for it. We knew the Provisional Order had been drafted and deposited, but we did not wish to move in it until we had had the meeting in the Parish, and heard another Government representative. In fact at the first meeting that was held an amendment was moved by someone objecting to the Provisional Order being framed at all, or being drafted, and Mr. Dobson, I understand, asked the mover to withdraw it as the next meeting would be the time at which to object.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

224. Are you appearing as Chairman of the Parish Council on behalf of the

Parish Council?-On behalf of the Parish Council, with two other members of the Parish Council, who are here also.

Chairman.

225. What is the objection of the Parish Council; not your personal objection?That is not my personal objection; I am speaking on behalf of the parishioners. I do not want to state my personal objection unless you ask me.

226. I will come to that later on. For the moment we will take you as representing the Parish Council only?-Quite right.

Sir H. Buckingham.

227. Was a resolution passed at the Parish Council that you should attend this Committee to represent their views? -Yes.

Chairman.

228. What was their resolution?-I do not think I have it here.

229. What is the objection of the Parish Council? That is one, and the way in which Lord Beauchamp obtained the signatures in the first place; we say it was more or less small tenants of his who enabled him to petition for the Provisional Order; and another point is that

they say now that they have two-thirds of the signatures of those persons interested in the common which enables them to go on with it; that is another thing we challenge, because I do not think it has been-well, it has been disputed who have the rights and who have not; they say they are to be re-assessed, so that I cannot see how they can obtain those necessary signatures, because the householders, we contend, have a right upon the common, and there are 399 householders in the parish; so that would take a great many signatures.

230. Are you responsible for statement No. 4, that at a parish meeting at Callow End held by Lord Beauchamp it was stated that all the householders in the parish of Powick had a right to common? -I believe that was stated at the meeting; we formed a Committee to discuss it.

231. This is the parish meeting?—Yes. 232. I will take that up again later. May we ask you what are the objections of the Parish Council to the Regulation Order being made?-Their point is that they should prefer, or it is their wish, that the Old Hills Common should be governed by a local body. I do not think any objection would be taken to the Act of 1899. We cannot see why all this elaborate provision should be gone into under this Act of 1876, and the question of fencing and improving the common; it is absolutely unnecessary. It can be regulated and should be regulated; we all agree with that.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

to

233. Have you any objection Worcester and Malvern coming in?Coming on to the common-none whatever.

234. That on the Conservators they will have one representative each? I do not think there would be any objection to that really.

235. No objection to that? I do not think so. We do not wish to see a big expense run up to be borne by the parish; it is not necessary.

236. You are afraid of a rate in the future? It will give them a chance to do lots of things; besides the defining of the common rights, who has rights and who has not, there are many people in the parish that have purchased their holding and given more for it in our

[Continued.

district than in any other district because of those valuable common rights.

237. Are you referring now to farmers or residents?-Residents. I take it every householder has a right; we always maintain that.

Chairman.

238. I want to be quite clear on that point. Are we to understand that the Parish Council, as represented by you, claim that the residents have a right over the common notwithstanding that they have no land?—Yes.

239. That they have been exercising them? Yes, I have.

240. Could you give us the names of residents who exercise rights of common but have no land?-I am afraid I could not. I am not conversant enough with that part of the parish, not the Callow End portion. I think one or two of the other members would be able to. I know myself I have the right although I do not turn anything out, and lots of others do not.

241. Do you exercise the rights personally?—No; we have many other rights and we do not bother; it is too much bother for a lot of us.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

242. You do not exercise the right because you have not any sheep?-I have sheep.

Chairman.

243. You do not turn sheep on to the common?-Not on to the common at that end of the parish.

244. You own land?-Yes.

245. Your contention as a Parish Council, I take it then, is that residents in the parish who have no land still have rights over the common?—Yes.

246. You have heard that contradicted to-day, have not you?-Yes, it is wrong; it is our contention it is wrong because we know people have exercised that right and enjoyed it, and I must say there is not such a big lot of stock on Old Hills as there has been in previous years, and there are more houses there now; there is plenty for everybody-plenty for everybody if they turn out, say, five sheep, which is what we do on the other common; it is allowed for the holder to turn out five sheep and Lord Coventry's agent never grumbles about it or raises any objection.

16 July, 1924.]

Sir H. Buckingham.

247. Are you dissatisfied, then, with the suggestion that a valuer should go into the question as to who has rights and who has not rights?-Most certainly.

248. Would not you be prepared to accept the decision of a valuer on that point? I think we would rather not-I am sure we would not.

249. You want to have your rights established, or not. do not you?-We might get them disestablished; that is my point.

250. You would have to prove your rights; you may not have the rights?-— That would be a point to be raised, no doubt to prove the rights. They say no cottager has any right, as I have heard said to-day. A cottage carries a beast graze as a right on the common, without a doubt. There are certain common rights in the parish for other parts of the common, and certain cottages carry a beast graze or two beast grazes; I do not think they could say they could see right on any portion of the common.

Chairman.

no

[Continued.

ever a right being established for a cottager, taking the legal interpretation we have heard from you. (To the Witness.) Has any attempt been made to try to regulate this common between the various authorities concerned?-No.

253. I mean any attempt before this Inquiry? Not since the Court Leet They held the Court Leet there up till 1907. I think that was about the last one.

254. How long have you been Chairman of the Local Authority?-I was elected Chairman this year, but I have been a member longer.

255. You do not know of any attempts that have been made to try and get the place regulated?-No.

Sir H. Buckingham.

256. Is your point that every resident in the parish has common rights?—Yes, certainly.

257. Supposing a new house is built in the village, do you maintain that the person who builds that house would also have a common right?-That is a point which we have raised, there is that question about the new houses that are being built-the Government houses and so on.

258. You do not maintain the point that every resident in the village has a common right?-Up to a point.

259. That is the point; that is where the Inquiry comes in ?--I do not think we should contend that they do; we have done up till now, but we have not had houses built in my parish till just these recent years, when there have been houses put up by the local authority.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

260. About how many houses are there?-399.

261. Supposing under this new building arrangement by which we are all going to have houses there were another 600 put up, would you agree that those 600 people have all got rights of pasturage?-Yes.

262. Would you?-Yes.

Chairman.

263. Have you anything else that you would like to say on behalf of the Parish Council?-I do not think so.

278. I understand the Parish Council are objecting to this Order! Will you tell the Committee on what ground?-I think the chief objection is because at the Parish meeting we were promised a second meeting by Mr. Dobson, and an amendment was made by a gentleman present, and he asked him to withdraw that amendment and stated that the second meeting would be the time to place his objections. What we have been waiting for is that second meeting.

279. If you had the second meeting what were you going to say? We should hear the voice of the Parish then.

280. Would you mind giving us the voice of the Parish, as you understand it? -We have not got the voice of the Parish yet, because we have not had the meeting. 281. In that case, may I ask for your own voice.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

282. Have not you held meetings since this protest meeting?-Last week; this day week we had a meeting.

283. You have not called the inhabitants together?-We had a Parish meeting.

Chairman.

284. Really you have no objection?-My only objection is that if it is going to be ruled we will have it ruled and regulated by local authority.

285. You prefer to have the local authority? Yes, certainly.

286. But beyond that you have got no objection?-No.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.

287. Do you mean by the Parish Council? The Parish Council or someone likely to be elected by the Parish. 288. By the Parish only?—Yes.

Captain O'Grady.

289. You do not object to a combination of parishes?-Not so long as we get enough on our side; we do not want a lot of outsiders.

Mr. Gibbons..

290. Do you object to (Worcester and Malvern being represented? Not at all.

Chairman.

291. Provided you have the majority from your Parish?—Yes.

Sir H. Buckingham.

292. Do you object to the projected list of Conservators; you have seen the list? -Yes.

293. Two representatives of Lord Beauchamp, one of the Council of Worcester, one of the Urban District Council of Great Malvern, one of the Parish Council of Powick, and five persons who are interested in the exercise of rights of common; they are all local people. Do you object to that?-I should like to see it made more of the Parish Councilmore in number.

Captain O'Grady.

294. I would like to ask what the effect of that notice was. I understood from Mr. Dobson's evidence given to-day that a certain notice was issued to all those

16 July, 1924.]

[Continued.

concerned. Was that posted up in the villages?-Yes, it was; but I think also our Chairman has got an account of the meeting in two different papers where Mr. Dobson said we should have separate meeting.

a

295. He gave his word you should have a second meeting?—Yes.

296. And subsequently the notice was posted?—Yes.

299. You live at the "Red Lion" in Powick?-Yes.

300. You are a licensed victualler and a farmer?-Yes; a smallholder I should call myself.

301. How much land do you hold?Because you see I reside at the "Red Lion," I have got no farm there; it is only pasture land, accommodation land.

302. How much land do you hold?About 48 acres : 48 or 49.

303. Do you own part of it?-I own it. 304. You own it altogether?—Yes. 305. How long have been the owner?When Lord Beauchamp had his sale of the out-lying portions of the Estate I rented under him. We either had to purchase or

306. How long have you been owner: since what year ?-1919.

307. You were previous to that tenant? Yes.

a

with lambs. Some of these gentlemen say I have a hundred sheep there; I am not the owner of 100 sheep.

313. Do your ewes have two lambs? -On the average about 14. I think the question is when a lamb becomes a sheep. That is the question. They come up and call the lambs sheep, but to be accurate they should put ewes and lambs; the lambs do not count until September, that is always the rule.

Chairman.

314. Do you know of any rule which limits the right to pasture on this common to tenants of less than 50 acres?-The only rule of the common that ever I knew was: No one shall summer any more than he can winter on the land he occupies either as owner or occupier-or what he

rents.

315. You have never heard the suggestion that any holder of more than 50 acres of land was not entitled to put anything on the common?-No.

316. Do you know whether cottagers without land exercise any right on the common?-It has always been recognised for cottagers to turn a few sheep out.

317. Whether they hold land or not? -Whether they hold land or not, and also on the Powick meadows; Lord Coventry is Lord of the Manor, and the steward there is reasonable. His Lordship is a real good sportsman as everyone knows, and he always gave away to the little cottagers; he encouraged thrift and he always recognised about five ewes to turn on.

318. What is your objection to this Order? Well, you have been through the objections of the Parish Council and it is needless for me to go into that. That is one thing from the Parish Council; but personally, you mean?