off: On the contrary, it is one of the best reafons can be given for my paying him off as foon as poffible.-The publick mea. fures now feem to be much changed from what they were a few years ago, it was then thought that the taxes molt grievous to the poor, were the moft proper to be firft redeemed. This meature feem A C ed then to be fo much the favourite of the Government, that his Majetty from the Throne recommended to us the relieving of the labourers and manufactu rers from those taxes that lay moft heavy upon them; and in pursuance of his B Majesty's most gracious Speech, the tax which was justly deemed to be the most grievous upon them, was in that Seffion of Parliament taken off. But, this falutary measure was all of a fudden quite altered, what the poor labourers and manufacturers had done to merit our Indignation I do not know, but they were entirely forgot, the whole cry was for relieving the landed Interest: Nay, so far did this new measure prevail, that that very tax which had been taken off as the most grievous on the poor, was again laid on for the pretended relief of D the landed Gentlemen, I fay, the pretended relief; for it was but a pretended relief, as all thofe reliefs will for ever prove to be, which are given by fubftituting a tax upon the neceffaries or the conveniences of life to the whole, or to any part of the land-tax. It is certain that the E landed Intereft fuffer much more by the many taxes we now pay than they ever can do by a land-tax, were it to be dou ble the highest that was ever heard of in this nation. There is not a guinea that a landed Gentleman pays out of his pocket for the neceffaries or conveniences of life, but at least 8 fhillings of it go towards the payment of thofe taxes to which thefe things are fubjected; and this every landed Gentleman in England mult pay to those with whom he deals, befides the land tax which he pays directly to the publick. If then a landed Gen. G tleman who spends the income of his Eftate yearly, were free of all those other taxes, if he could have as many of the neceffaries and conveniences of life for 13 fhillings as he now has for a Guinea, could he not then eafily pay even 4 hill ings in the pound land-tax, in cale the fame fhould be found necellary for the fafety of his country? To pretend, my Lords, that applying a part of the finkingfund to the current fervice of the year, is a providing for that fervice without F contracting any new debt, or laying any new tax upon the people, is a mere impofition upon the publick. What is necellary for the current fervice ought always to be raised within the year; the contrary method tends to the ruin both of the trade and credit of the nation: It is a temporary expedient which muft always be attended with fatal confequences, and looks as if an administration were fufpicious of their interest in Parliament, or were afraid of asking from the people what by their measures they had made neceflary for the current fervice of the year. Tho' the landed Gentlemen be eafed a little, tho' no new tax be laid on, yet it cannot be faid that the current fervice of the year is provided for without running the nation in debt. The apply ing towards the fervice of the year, that money which ought to have been applied towards the payment of an old debt, is the fame thing with contracting a new debt. But, this is not the only mischief, we are not only putting off the payment of old debts, but we are every year running into new. Why might not these furpluifes, as they are called, have been ap plied towards the payment of a part of the Navy debt lately contracted? Do not the accounts upon our table fhew us what a large fum is lately become due to the Navy? There is now above a million due upon that fingle article, which must some day be provided for by Parliament. Some temporary expedients may be found out for putting off that provision for a little time; but fuch expedients are always ruinous; the longer fuch a neceifary provifion is put off, the greater handle is given to Ufurers and Extortioners to make unjust advantages of the poor Officers and Sailors belonging to the Navy, and the more heavy it will fall upon the nation at laft, either the Sinking fund must be at laft applied to the paying it off, or the people must be charged with fome new tax for that purpose: I do not know but there may be defigns of making that debt a pretence for continuing one of the most pernicious taxes that was ever laid on the poor of this nation.-To pretend that there is a danger in paying off too much of the publick debt at once really seems to me to be fomething very extraordinary. Our Sinking-fund is not fo great,. nor can it ever be to great as to give the leaft foundation for fuch fears; If it were most exactly and moft religioully applied to that purpose for which it was originally defigned, there would be no danger of people's carrying their money out of this nation. There are but few countries where there is any great credit either publick or private, and in all those where Sither the one or the other abounds, the Intereft of money is rather lower than it A is in this country, fo that if the Intereft of money in this nation were run down a good deal lower than it is, we should be put upon a par with fome of our neighbours, and when people faw that our publick faith was in every circumstance exactly obferved, they would be fo fond of continuing their money in this country, that they would accept of a lower Interest here than they could have in o ther countries, especially in those whe the fecurity has always been very muc fufpected. The noble Lord who fpoke laft feems to mistake the Refolution propofed. The applying of the Sinking-fund towards redeeming taxes is the fame, with applying it towards reducing the publick debts; for as our moft grievous taxes are pledged to the creditors of the publick, thofe debts for which they are pledged must be paid off before the taxes can be redeemed: fo that the Refolution moved for is fomething more ftrong than if it had been in general words, that the Sinking fund ought always to be applied to wards the reducing of the publick debts, for thefe general words plainly appear to be included in the Refolution, and farther, that it ought first to be applied towards the paying off thofe debts for which the taxes most prejudicial to our trade and manufactures,are mortgag'd; for till thofe debts are paid off, we cannot abolish those taxes ; but the debts being once paid off, and thofe taxes thereby redeemed, it will then, and not till then, be in F the power of Parliament to confider whe ther or no the tax ought to be abolish'd. The refolution therefore, as moved for, is a moft proper refolution, and can't be put in better or stronger terms than the Lord who made the motion has put it. Such a refolution is, my Lords, become abfolutely neceffary, it is fhewing to the Other house what is the opinion of this; it is fhewing to the whole nation, that the finking Fund is for the future to be deemed facred; it is not tying up this house to any thing but what we ought to be tied up to. Tho' a private man be abfolute matter of his own affairs, yet every private man lays down to himself fome general rules, from which he never departs without fome very urgent neceffity, In this Houfe we do the fame : (Supplement to Vol. III.J D E G Howmany ftanding orders have we made? I hope it will not be faid that all our ftanding orders are ufelefs, because we may depart from them, or alter them when we have a mind. If this Refolution be agreed to, it is certainly to be understood in the fame fenfe as all our standing orders are; it is never to be departed from but in cafes of the utmost neceflity. E-1 of Sgh.] My Lords, I am very well convinced that the SinkingFund ought never to be applied to any thing but that for which it was established, and for which it was originally intended; and I hope, that your Lordihips are not only now, but always will be of the fame opinion, I hope, that that facred Fund will never for the future be applied to any ufe but that of discharging the publick debts, except in cafes of the utmoft Extremity. This is my way of thinking, yet I cannot agree to our coming to fuch a refolution as the noble Lord has been pleased to propose. Surely we do not mean, we cannot pretend to tie up the hands of the Legiflature fo, as that they must never touch that Fund, even in the times of greatest danger and neceflity. If there should arife a wicked and unnatural Rebellion in the country; if the nation fhould be invaded, and 30 or 40000 foreign troops landed in our Dominions, are we to tie ourselves up, fo that the Sinking-Fund is not even in fuch a cafe to be touched? Many other cafes may happen, in which it might be more for the benefit of the nation to apply a part of that fund to fome other ufe, than to apply the whole to the payment of the publick debts.- -We do occafioned by our having fuch a Refolunot know what inconveniences may be tion entered upon the Journals of our Houfe: There is one terrible confequence which now occurs to me, and which (in my opinion) may very probably arife from our coming to fuch a Refolution. difference between the two Houfes of It may very naturally be the caufe of a Parliament, which would be of the most dangerous cenfequence to our conftitution: The other houfe may look upon it as a directing of them in what they are to do, with respect to the application of that Fund: Or, if the other House should not take is amifs, yet, if they should upon any future Emergency, which they thought preffing, apply a part of that fund otherwife than to the payment of the national Debt, your Lordships might perhaps think yourselves in honour bound -- y fuch a Refolution, fo as not to agree with them in fuch application: This would narurally raife a conteft between the two Houses which would put a full ftop to all publick butinefs of the nation; and who can tell the confequence of fuch a Contest, or how long it might last? This, my Lords, is one inconvenience which immediately oc- A curred to me, and other Lords may, I believe, foresee a great many more. As that Fund is in its own nature facred to difcharging the Debts of the nation, I hope that without coming to fuch a Refolution, your Lordthips will never agree to the applying of it in any other Way except in cafes of the greatest neceflity. Such a refolution 1 muft therefore think quite unneceflary, and as I think it may be attended with dangerous confequences, I cannot agree to it. L-d B. My Lords, the noble Ld who spoke laft has made me think of an amendment to the refolution I propofed ; and as I am always fond of having that noble Lord's Approbation, I fhall, therefore, propofe that the Refolution may be to this effect: That it is the Opinion of this House, that the Sinking-fund ought for the future to be applied, in time of peace and publick tranquillity, to the redeeming of those Taxes which are most prejudicial to the Trade, most burthenfome on the Manufactures, and most oppreffive upon the Poor of this nation. C L--d Sgh.] Befides the cafe of an In- D vafion or Rebellion, there are many other cafes which may happen; and I believe I gave feveral other reafons for my being againft coming to the refolution propofed; therefore, tho' I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for the honour he does me, yet I cannot agree to the refolution even as now amended, The Ms of Tle, the E---1 of Wea, and the E---1 of S-----d spoke alfo in favour of, this refolution: However, at laft, upon putting the question it was carried in the negative without any divifion. June 1. The Houfe of Lords went upon the Examination of the Directors of the S. Sea Company. The prefent Directors of that Company were firft called in and examined; after them the late Infpe&tors of the Company's accounts, and laftly the former fet of Directors were examined. Then L--d B----- ft moved for this Refolution, viz. That it appeared to that Houfe, that on the 5th of December, 1729, the general Court of the South-Sea Company then held, refolved, That the then prefent Directors fhould be the Trustees for the Company, with relation to the produce of the forfeited Eftates of the Directors and others in the year 1720, vefted in the Company by an Alt of the 7th of King George I. and that the then Trustees fhould furrender, and deliver over to the faid Directors, the faid produce, and all the books of accounts, papers and writings relating thereto. in pursuance of the A&, paffed in the then laft Seffion of Partia ment: And that that was the only order or di rection of any general Court of the said Company relating to the disposal of the produce of the said eftates. Upon this the E-1 of I---ay ftood up and faid, That he would not oppose the motion in general, but he thought they could not pofitively affirm, that that was the only order or direction of any general Court relating to the difpofal of that money; and therefore he would propose an amendment to the latter part of the noble Lord's motion, which was, that it fhould run thus: And that it did not appear to them that there was any other order or direction of any general Court of the faid Company relating to the difpofal of the faid Eftates. Which Amendment was approved of by L--d B----ft, and then his motion, thus amended, was agreed to by the House without any oppofition. Then the E--1 of Wca moved for the Houfe to refolve, That the difpofing of the forfeited eftates of those who were the Directors of the South-Sea Company in the Tear 1720, without any order or direction of a general Court for that purpose, was contrary to Law. Adding that he hoped he had no occafion to fay much in fupport of this motion, because the words of the Act of Parliament were fo plain and exprefs, that it was á certain confequence of the Refolution they had juft then come to. The Lord Chancellor offering to put the queftion upon this motion, the D-ke of Dre ftood up, and spoke to this effect---I cannot, my Lords, agree to this motion, because I think it is anticipating the judgment of this Houfe in an affair which may perhaps come before us as a Court of Judicature. Tis true, there does not appear to us to have been any other E order or direction of any general Court of that Company for the difpofal of those forfeited eftates, except that which is mentioned in our former refolution; but ftill there may be other orders: and granting that there never was any other order, yet we ought not I think to pafs judgment even upon that order, without having all proper parties before us, and the cafe fully debated and confidered. As the refolution propofed is a fort of decree or determination as to a point in which private men are certainly concerned, we ought not to pafs it till the parties concerned are properly before us, and are fully heard as to what they may have to fay against it, for which reafon I cannot agree to the refolution propofed. F G B prefs and the Refolution moved for by the - is a queftion which I fhall not pretend now to determine; I fhall not fo much as offer any arguments either of one fide or the other, but from thence I conclude, that even the order which we have feen deferves fome furA ther confideration, before we come to any fuch Refolution as is now propofed; for atter your Lordships have feen and confidered that order, your coming to fuch a Refolution is certainly a determination, that the order you have feen and confidered, is no proper or legal order for the difpofal of that money. The courts below will certainly look upon it as fuch; and even tho' they fhould be of opinion, that that order was a fufficient authority for the difpofing of that money, and that no future order was requifite, yet they would be loath to give a judgment fo contrary to what appeared to have been the judgment of this houfe.---The point now before us cannot be faid to be an indifputable point, and therefore I muft think that your Lordfhips coming to fuch a Refolution is a de termining of a queftion in difpute, and a making a fort of decree against the Gentlemen who were at that time in the management of that company's affairs, before they have been heard either by themselves or their council upon a question in which both their honour and intereft are fo nearly concerned: This is a method of proceeding which, I hope, this houfe will never come into, or into any Refolution which may affect either the character, or eftate of any private man, without first giving him an opportunity to be heard against it.---We ought, my Lords, to confider that we are a court of equity, and tho' it thould appear that the money arifing from thofe forfeited eftates had been difpofed of without fuch an authority as was neceffary in the ftrict terms of law, yet if it has been difpofed of in the best manner for the benefit of the company, the then directors ought in equity to ftand acq itted, they ought not to be loaded with any thing like a fentence of fo auguft an affem ly against them; and therefore, it is really my opinion that you ought not to come to fuch D F G E-1 of I---ay.] My Lords, tho' there were really no other order or direction of any general court of the South-Sea company relating to the difpofal of the money in queftion, befides that which has been laid before your Lordfhips, I do not know but that it may be pretended, that even the order which your Lordships have feen was a fufficient authority for the difpofal of that money: I: was certainly a fufficient authority for the trustees to deliver the produce of thofe eftates to the directors of that company, and when in pursuance of that order it was delivered into the hands of the directors; I do not know but that it may be faid, that the terms of the act of Parliament were then complied with, and that the directors might H thereafter difpofe of it in that way which they thought moft beneficial for the company, as they do of fome other parts of that company's property, without any particular or der of a general court for that purpose. This Refolution as now moved for, 'till the affair comes properly before you, and all parties are heard what they have to fay either in law or equity in their own behalf, therefore I must move for the previous question. E--1 of S---gh.] My Lords, as to the order of the general court of the South-Sea company, which has been laid before your Lordships, furely it cannot be looked on either in law or equity as an order directing how the money in queftion was to be difpofed of, nor can it ever be perfumed that it will be the opinion of any court, or of any man, that an order directing only who should be the trustees of the company as to that money, was an order for directing to what ufes it ought to be applied; therefore, if that point were to be exprefsly determined, it could not be of any bal confequence in any cafe A cafe whatever, but by the Refolution pro- The E--1 of C---Idfpoke alfo for the Refolution, and the D. of N---le against it. The previous question was then put, and upon a divifion there were of Lords prefent 45 contents, and 57 not contents; and of proxies 25 contents, and 18'not contents; fo that it was carried against the Refolution by a Majority of five. DEBATE on a motion for a committee of enquiry, to examine into the Affairs of the S. S. Company. June 2. L--d B---ft flood up and fpoke in fubftance as follows,----My Lords, notwithflanding all the pains your Lordships have been at in your enquiries as to the dif pofal of the produce of the forfeited eftates of those who were directors of the South D G that I have met with any fatisfaction as to Sta company in the year 1720, I cannot fayliament be made fully acquainted with all the |