stockholder had a right to look to the continuance of that system, and to complain if it should be altered. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought, on the other hand, that the stockholder might, with some appearance of justice, have complained of the system of 1802, at the time when it was established, because it introduced a change, which might then have appeared unfavourable to his interests. No complaint was however made; the stockholder acquiesced with cheerfulness and confidence in the wisdom of parliament. But it appeared to him impossible that he could make any complaint now, when the intended change would restore him to that situation in which he would have been placed, if all the loans had been raised in the ordinary manner, and the Act of 1802 had not taken place. It was now proposed to appropriate 870,000l. a year immediately to the Sinking Fund, and such a grant was of much more value than the speculation of a possible remote advantage. The right hon. gentleman had stated that the money market would be set afloat, and that in the worst way, not by any fixed and permanent plan. In fact, the plan, when once established, would be as fixed and permanent as any other; and perhaps less liable to variation than the present plan, which was generally allowed to require some revision. Every stock bolder," said the right hon. gentleman, "knew as well as Mr. Pitt when the Sinking Fund under the Act of 1786 would be limited." Every stockholder will, under the proposed system, know as well as the minister what the amount of the Sinking Fund in every year will be, and may form his speculations with as much certainty as upon the plan now existing or any other. All such speculations must be in their na ture uncertain, because the prices of stock will be varied by circumstances which cannot be foreseen; but they may, under the proposed plan, be entered into with as much security as their own nature admits of. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would, when he should come to examine the plan more maturely, find that many of his objections rested upon a misconception of it. With respect to the time when it should be taken into consideration, he could see no necessity for postponing the consideration of it beyond Monday se'nnight. In the interval any gentleman who might not be satisfied with the information which would be put into his hands, might call for any further documents which he might think necessary; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would be happy to assist in procuring any information which might be desired. If it should then appear to be absolutely necessary that a longer period should be given for consideration, he should not object to it; for he was as much impressed with the magnitude of the subject as any gentleman, and he should feel more regret than any, if the House should come to a hasty decision, because he should feel himself involved in a deeper responsibility. But it certainly appeared to him, perhaps from having given the plan so much previous consideration, that a few days would be sufficient to enable gentlemen to make themselves masters of it. To him it was particularly recommended by the consideration that it was equaily applicable to all the various circumstances to which we could with probability look forward. It was not limited to a particular amount of expenditure; it was not confined to a state of war or of peace, but would adapt itself to every change of situation. He had already pointed out its effects in time of war, but had omitted to mention its operation in time of peace. In that event he considered its advantages as even greater than in time of war, and superior to whatever had been attempted in any measure which had been proposed to parliament. It afforded an opportunity of keeping at the constant disposal of parliament the means of funding a large sum, to the extent, if required, of 100 millions or more, as a resource eventually to be applied in case of the renewal of hostilities. This was such a treasure as had never been possessed either by this country, or by any other; and could not fail to impress upon every foreign power, a just sense of the value of the friendship of this country, and of the danger of provoking its hostility. With respect to any constitutional jealousy which might be naturally excited on the first mention of such a fund, it should be recollected that it in no way freed the crown from the control of parliament; that it was a treasure strictly parliamentary, and which could only be touched by the authority of the legislature. He wished only to add one word with regard to the anxiety expressed by the right hon. gentleman for the consolidated fund. He begged to assure him that the effect of the proposed plan could only ba to strengthen the consolidated fund and not to impair it. He felt as strongly impressed as the right hon. gentleman with the importance of supporting the consolidated fund; and he appealed to him whether he had not, in measures in which he had been engaged, proved his anxiety on this subject more strongly than the right hon. gentleman himself ever had an opportunity of doing. propriated to the Sinking Fund, it would, of course, be rather increased than diminished. Setting aside the complicated statement of figures, the real difference consisted in the variation between the amount of taxes under the new plan, viz. 750,000l. and 1,700,000. which was called for the charges, &c. under the old plan. The new system would not create an immediate effect; but he called on those who were the guardians of the public finances in that House, to consider its operation very seriously. For his own part he should come to the discussion with a calm and deliberate mind; and he was sure, political differences being laid aside, the House would have but one object in view-the safety and security of the country. Lord Castlereagh observed, that whatever were the merits or demerits of the plan, he thought no expressions should have been made use of, tending to create an immediate effect on public credit. In this point of view, the hon. gentleman who had just sat down had, in his opinion, placed the question on its true grounds, and corrected the doubts which had been thrown out, in speeches made that evening-he was convinced that those by whom they were delivered, had no intention of producing any unpleasant feeling in the public mind; but still what had been observed, if it had gone out to the world, unaccompanied by the statement of the hon. gentleman, who spoke last, that no immediate effect would be produced, might have done mischief. Mr. Buring did not think it possible to go at all into argument on this subject, with the imperfect information which was then before the House. But the mere stating of the case comprised circumstances which shocked persons who were anxious for the firm state of public credit, and for the fair situation of the finances of the country. They could not hear those circumstances stated, without expressing regret and surprise. He felt considerable alarm at the progress this plan was likely to make; at the same time he must observe on the subject of interfering with the Sinking Fund, that a period might come, when it would be necessary to interfere with it, even if the new system had not been introduced. The circumstance of the Sinking Fund letting loose twenty millions at once, at the disposal of government, rendered some regulation on the subject necessary; but there was a great difference between that regulation which went to strengthen the fund, and that which would have the effect of weakening it. In making any alteration, they must necessarily look to the state of Europe and of the world at the time the alteration was proposed. They must consider whether Sir John Newport, without any declared their finances had been productive in that opposition on his part to the plan, thought year, or whether the national expenditure it became the duty of the committee to had been diminished. They must exa-examine, in the most minute manner, the mine, whether, for a year or two, the ex- resolutions, with respect both to their impenditure had not been greatly increased, mediate and futue operration on the finanand whether, in addition to this, they did cial system of the country. not find, from the price of the public funds, that there was a difficulty in raising the supplies, by way of loan, in preference to taxes. Perhaps, on a review of these circumstances, they might consider the present an unfavourable period for touching the Sinking Fund at all. He thought it was desirable that the public should be apprised of the nature of the plan; its discussion, in his opinion, could create no immediate effect on public credit. What the measure itself would produce in two or three years, was another thing. As it was intended that, in the present year, taxes to the amount of 870,000. should be ap Mr. H. Thornton noticed two objections: first, that by this proposed plan the amount of the Sinking Fund would eventually be diminished, and the funds consequently reduced: second, he hoped that no unfair impression would go abroad. His own general opinion was, that it was better to pass a prospective measure of this description than to adopt it suddenly. It was not enough to look at it as it might affect taxation, but its future operation on the stock market it was equally important to attend to. Another point was, how far it was consistent with the public faith pledged in 1792, and the Act of Parliament upon widows and orphans would be poured down, not upon him for suggesting the plan, but upon parliament for sanctioning it. which those who lent their money to the | felt, and that the blessings of thousands of state relied for redemption at a particular period. The other main objection that occurred to him was, the effect which the precedent might have in affecting the confidence of the creditor in future. At present he would not enter farther into the subject, but reserve himself for a more minute enquiry. The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that his hon. friend was greatly mistaken in supposing that the Sinking Fund would ever be reduced 7 millions below its present amount. The greatest diminution would in fact be only about two millions, which would take place, in the course of about four years, after which the Sinking Fund would again gradually accumulate. He again contended that the plan was perfectly consistent with good faith towards the public creditor. Any idea to the contrary could only arise, as most of the objections made that evening had done, from a misconception of the plan. The faith pledged to the public creditor was that of an adherence to the Act of 1792, to which the proposed plan was strictly conformable. That act required that provision should be made for the redemption of the debt, within 45 years: the different plans of Mr. Pitt, of lord Sidmouth, and of lord Lansdowne, were all founded on that basis. The plan now submitted to the committee not only strictly complied with this condition, but actually made provision for the redemption of the debt within a shorter time than the laws now in force. It was therefore capable of performing more than the stockholder had a right to look to, or the public to expect. But in considering the case of the stock. holder it was impossible for him to overlook that great and numerous body of the stockholders to whom a respite of four years from increasing taxation would be more valuable than to almost any other class in the community; they comprised that body of annuitants who drew a limited income from the funds, which formed their sole subsistence. They had not, like most other classes of men, the means of increasing their income by their industry, or of giving an additional value to their property. On such persons every addition of taxation fell with unmitigated severity, and to such the relief to be obtained from the proposed system would be most seasonable and salutary. He trusted and believed that it would be so received and Some conversation then took place across the table as to the repetition now of the arguments employed on the question of the Sinking Fund in 1802. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the stockholder, after a lapse of thirty years, would be benefited, but until that period arrived his condition would be worse after the adoption of this plan than before it. Mr. Tierney lamented that he should not live to enjoy any of the fruits of this noble scheme, since the advantages were postponed to so remote a period. The right hon. gentleman might be content with this distant view of the promised land, but for his part, he had rather experience some immediate benefits. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the inconvenience that might result from paying off the whole of the national debt: it would be little better than a national bankruptcy; and illustrated it by referring to the case of the elector of Saxony, who had been petitioned by a vast number of persons to continue to them the public security for money they could not otherwise dispose of. The Chairman then reported progress, and it was ordered that the Report be taken into further consideration on the 15th. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, March 4. PETITIONS RESPECTING THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.] The Earl of Moira presented a petition from the Catholics of the county of Galway, praying the repeal of disabilities. His lordship took that opportunity (as he might not be present at the discussion of the question) to declare his opinion that the removal of these disabilities was not only the wisest and most politic, but also the only safe course that could be adopted. Earl Grey presented petitions from certain Christians at Sheffield and its neighbourhood, and from the Protestant Dissenters there, praying for the repeal of all disabilities on account of religious opinions. He also presented a petition in favour of the Catholic Claims, from the portmen of Ipswich, and one to the same effect from the inhabitants of Berwickupon-Tweed. With respect to the latter, his lordship observed, that a petition from the corporation, against the Catholic claims, had been presented, which had been agreed to at a meeting, by a majority of those present; but he was instructed to state, that the present petition was signed by 80 of the burgesses, forming, in fact, a majority of the corporation. Lord Holland presented a petition from the Protestant dissenting ministers of the three denominations in London and its vicinity, praying for the repeal of all disabilities, on account of religious opinions. His lordship observed, that the petitioners were the successors of those persons who had so materially contributed to the restoration of Charles the 2nd, and of those, who, at a later period, had consented to acts, which involved the sacrifice of their own privileges, with the most disinterested view of supporting the House of Hanover. Their petitions upon the present occasion had been accelerated in consequence of what had been stated by right reverend prelates and other lords, that petitions which they presented against the Catholic claims had been signed by Protestant dis senting ministers and Protestant dissenters. They were therefore anxious to make known their sentiments in favour of general religious liberty, that it might not be supposed that they participated in the opinions of a contrary description thus stated to have been expressed by others. The Earl of Essex presented a petition in favour of the Catholic claims, from the nobility, gentry, and freeholders of the county of Flint. Lord Kenyon adverted to the petition already presented, which had been agreed upon at a county meeting of Flintshire, with only two dissentient voices, and stated that, subsequently, with a view to obtain this counter petition, the greatest exertions had been used by the agents of earl Grosvenor to procure the signatures to it of persons dependent upon his lordship and in his employ. They had for this purpose resorted to threats, and in particular two individuals had been threatened with being turned out of their farms, and dismissed from his lordship's employ, if they did not sign the petition. The Earl of Essex said, he knew nothing of the circumstances alluded to by the noble lord. The petition had been handed to him, the noble earl alluded to not being able to attend. (VOL. XXIV.) Lord Kenyon stated, that he had intimated to earl Grosvenor his intention of stating the facts connected with the manner of obtaining signatures to this petition, if that noble earl should present it. He disclaimed any intention of imputing to the noble earl who now presented the petition, any knowledge of the circum stances to which he had alluded. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, March 4. THE PRINCESS OF WALES.] Public expectation probably never rose so high as on this evening, in consequence of the expected discussion in the House of Commons on the subject of the Princess of Wales's Letter, and the explanation which was naturally looked for. An immense crowd assembled in the avenues of the House, and the gallery door not being opened till five o'clock, after two ballots had been gone through, there was ample time for the crowd to accumulate. The Gallery, on its being opened, was immediately filled, and great numbers, disappointed of admission, were compelled reluctantly to take their departure. It had been rumoured for two or three days previously, that the bringing in the question relative to the Princess of Wales, would be the signal for some member to move the standing order for the exclusion of strangers. It was doubted, however, whether any member would execute so unwelcome a task. Events proved this rumour to be well founded, and Mr. Lygon was the member who volunteered his services to close the doors. A great number of peers were below the bar anxious to hear the discussion, who of course were, equally with other strangers, compelled to quit the House. In consequence of the sitting being thus rendered secret, Mr. Bennet moved an adjournment, upon which the House divided, Ayes 139; Noes, 248. Majority, 109. The adjournment being thus negatived, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone rose and said, that as the hon. gentleman opposite had cleared the gallery, he should not bring forward his motion that night, but reserve to himself the right of renewing it on any future occasion. Mr. Lygon said, that whenever the hon. gentleman did renew his motion, he should feel it to be his duty again to move the standing order for clearing the gallery. Mr. Wynn wished to be informed by (4 B) his Majesty's ministers, whether it was their intention to bring forward any motion on the subject of the Letter addressed by her royal highness the Princess of Wales to the Speaker, and which had been communicated to the House? Lord Castlereagh said, it was his intention to avail himself of the first opportunity to give such explanations as his duty required from him. It would not, however, be taking a fair part towards her Royal Highness, if after throwing herself on the House as she had done, he should originate any question. It was a singular situation in which her Petition stood, if there was no individual in the House to explain the nature of her complaint, and to propose some remedy for it. If any person was prepared to come forward, then it would be for the House to determine what course it was most proper for it to pursue. He was certainly the last person who could be charged with that task, but he should have no reluctance to explain such matters as his duty would allow him to speak of on a proper occasion. Mr. Whitbread said, he was surprised that the noble lord did not, on the day the Letter from the Princess of Wales was read to the House, give notice of some motion on so important a proceeding; it was due to her Royal Highness, to the House, and to the public, that some investigation should follow such an appeal as had been made to them. No similar application was ever placed on the table without some proceeding suitable to its degree of importance. He did not know that the noble lord, or the Speaker, were called to that council, till he read the Pilot Newspaper of that evening, containing what was said to be the Report alluded to in the Letter of the Princess of Wales, and signed by 22 members of the council. The House, in his opinion, could not be satisfied without further explanation; and it was the duty of ministers, in the first instance, to have moved for an authentic copy of the Report that was agreed to*. It was also right that the * The following is a Copy of the said Report; REPORT, &C. TO HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE PRINCE REGENT —February 1813. The following Members of his Majesty's most honourable Privy Council, viz, His grace the archbishop of Canterbury, the right hon. the Lord High Chan House should know what was referred by his royal highness the Prince Regent to the council, as the foundation of their Report, whether it was the Report of 1806, or the Minute of Council of 1807, signed by lord Eldon, the noble lord, and the member for Liverpool, (Mr. Canning) in which her Royal Highness was declared to be wholly innocent. If the Report contained in the Pilot paper was correctly given, he concurred with her Royal Highness, that aspersions were cast upon her which tended to the insecurity of the state. For there certainly was one passage so ambiguously worded, that an inference might be drawn from it, that her Royal Highness had been guilty of great misconduct; whilst it also might bear the construction, that she was no farther blamable than for such things as might be considered but trifling offences. Under this impression he again said it became the noble lord to move for the Report. The transactions ought not to be kept secret. He was neither the adviser or counsellor of her Royal Highness, but it should be seen whether or not the noble lord had not been both her acquitter and accuser. Lord Castlereagh replied, that he would not consent to be put on his defence for any petition, or to give any explanations, if no individual thought proper to submit a motion upon it. It was his duty as a privy counsellor not to disclose the secrets of the council without the permission of the crown-nothing should induce him to swerve from his course of duty; but at the same time he would say, that he had given no advice which he was not willing to avow and to defend. If the hon. member had read the Report, he would find it was not open to the construction put upon it. The question for the consideration of the council was not one of charge, but one relating to regulations under which her Royal Highness was to be allowed to see her daughter. Mr. Whitbread then read the Report, and said the public were ignorant of all the circumstances which had induced the cellor, his grace the archbishop of York, his grace the Lord Primate of Ireland, the Lord President of the council, the Lord Privy Seal, the earl of Buckinghamshire, the earl Bathurst, the earl of Liverpool, the earl of Mulgrave, the viscount Melville, the viscount Sidmouth, the viscount Castlereagh, the right hon. the lord bishop of London, the right hon. lord Ellenborough, |