30 June, 1926.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES. Sir WALTER F. NICHOLSON, K.C.B., Major [Continued. General Sir WILLIAM A. LIDDELL, K.C.M.G., C.B., Air Vice-Marshal DAVID MUNRO, works contracts are made under regular progress payments in which no question of advances at the end of March comes up at all; it is almost negligible. (General Sir William Liddell.) In fact a reserve is always kept. over 2802. You are reasonably satisfied that there is no case in which payment on advance at the end of the year to carry is made to a Contractor?—(Sir Walter Nicholson.) There is nothing of In certain cases there is that kind. something beyond the absolute strict terms of the contract, but nothing that is not amply covered by the work done and with adequate security. to scales of 2803. Now getting on accommodation, one cannot help noticing if one looks at the Estimates the enorin which the number of cases mous Estimates are increased or reduced or There is a very small under revision. Is proportion in which that is not so. that due to changes in the scale of for the personnel for accommodation whom you are making provision?(General Sir William Liddell.) No; the scale of accommodation for personnel as but the is constant, individuals establishment of these units is subject to ccnsiderable variation from time to time. 2804. Is the scale of accommodation the same scale as the scale obtaining in the Army for equivalent ranks?-Yes, practically it is entirely the same. 2805. So it is only the variation of location of establishment which is causing this continual revision of Estimates?Yes, mainly that, but also the requirements in workshops and technical buildings and even in the size of hangar accommodation vary from time to time. 2806. In technical buildings I can see that, but in accommodation for the personnel? With regard to accommodation for the personnel, it is a question of variation of establishment generally. 2807. The scale of accommodation is also fixed abroad as well as at home? Yes. 2808. And you work on the same scale? -Yes. 2809. For instance, in Iraq and in Egypt and so on, the same scale obtains for the Army in those places?-If we did provide accommodation in Iraq, yes; in Egypt yes certainly. 2810. How is it that the establishments Does the establishment vary so much. The of Squadrons vary so much in recent as stable yet as the establishments of a regimental unit in the Army. To a considerable extent establishment is regarded as experimental still. And further than that, the mere question of variation of establishments, which, of course, would be within comparatively narrow limits, is also affected by re-arrangements conThe sequent on the expansion Scheme. expansion Scheme does not simply involve selecting six or eight or ten new Both on strategic sites of buildings. grounds and on administrative grounds it has involved the bringing out of an elaborate scheme of shuffiing units from one point to another, and the precise total of the personnel at any particular station may in consequence vary very considerably. 2811. At its initiation that is obviously so, but I presume now that as the Scheme is more or less foreseen for some time in advance, that shuffling ought to cease? The shuffling will go on for some time. The precise shuffles are largely foreseen, certainly so far as the interim stage of the expansion programme is concerned. 2812. So far as building is concerned, the building that is being done will not shuffle with the establishment; it will be a definite plan, presumably?—The building, yes. 2813. Then are all these alterations in establishment attributable to the policy of increase of the Air Force?-Partly that, and partly the variability of establishment; but I think the first is really the (General Sir more important. William Liddell.) Yes, I think it is. 2814. That takes one down to a subsidiary question. Do you find that the estimates are reasonably accurate in the Air Force as compared with the War should the think I Office?-Yes, but the estimating is good, distinctly; are more abrupt, changes of policy perhaps. 2815. Do you attribute that to the fact that you yourself are working the Chief of Policy, directly under whereas in the War Office the staff have a buffer in the sense of another member of the Council? (Sir Walter Nicholson.) No. Really, the policy to which Sir William is referring is the governmental policy. I think possibly the House 30 June, 1926.] Sir WALTER F. NICHOLSON, K.C.B., Major [Continued. General Sir WILLIAM A. LIDDELL, K.C.M.G., C.B., Air Vice-Marshal DAVID MUNRO, C.B., C.I.E., F.R.C.S., and H. W. W. MCANALLY, Esq., C.B. scarcely appreciates the extraordinary buffeting to which the machine of the Air Ministry has been subjected in its short existence, in the way of very considerable variations of policy. I do not say that in the least in the nature of a complaint, but I think some allowance has to be made for it. 2816. I was just wondering how far those changes of policy, which of course one has seen, get right down on to the building programme?-I think they do, very materially. 2817. For instance, Halton; has there been any change in policy involving changes of construction at Halton?-Yes. Halton was originally designed for 2,000 apprentices. Then an extra block had to be built for another 1,000. Then at one time a fourth thousand was contemplated; that is now wiped out. 2818. At Halton the hospital was built according to the War Office scale of accommodation? (General Sir William Liddell): Yes; it was built on the War Office scale. 2819. Do you want to amplify or explain the figures that you gave this morning?-When the original estimate for Halton Hospital was sent to the Treasury they referred it to the Inter-Departmental Works Committee for their remarks. At that time I was President of that Committee. It was examined by the War Office, it was examined at the Office of Works, we made our comments and criticisms, and the design for that hospital as it now is being erected is the revised design. That is the one big scheme that has been referred to the Committee. 2820. What is the actual cost of the hospital itself, apart from accommodation of staff? The actual cost of the hospital exclusive of accommodation of staff, would approximate to £110,000; that is including external services, roads, drains, or a proportion of them. I would answer that in round figures because it is very hard to differentiate in the cost of external services. 2821. For 180 beds, that is about £630 a bed?-About £630 a bed. The cost of the nursing sisters' quarters, accommodation for men, and a proportion of external services, is about £27,000. £174,000? Yes. That £174,000 originally included provision for married quarters for officers and other ranks, as the Chairman pointed out, which will be merged into items 57 and 58. Chairman. 2823. It bears out my argument?—Yes. That is a point that you raised. General Charteris. 2824. Do you happen to know what is the approximate cost in the War Office of your bed and hospital accommodation on a similar scale to Halton ?-No, those comparative figures of costs are very difficult to get at the present time. If I might just give the Committee some information, taking the cost in 1914 as 100 per cent., in 1919 it was 200 per cent., in 1920 and 1921 it was 250 per cent., in 1922 it was 200 per cent., in 1923 it was 175 per cent., that is the lowest, and since then it has risen to 190 per cent. Chairman. 2825. 1923 was the lowest?-1923 according to my information was the lowest, 175 per cent. compared with 100 per cent. pre-war. 2826. Are those War Office figures?No, they were prepared in my office. Mr. Ramsden. 2827. What is the reason for the increase since 1923?-Labour, materials and housing. We were building cheaper married quarters two or three years ago than we could possibly get now. General Charteris. 2828. In the presentation of Estimates is there any reason why the whole of the Estimates, apart from the question that I raised originally, should not be exactly the same in your Estimates and the Army Estimates, in so far as works are concerned ?-No, no reason. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) They are practically. 2829. They vary considerably on these figures? (General Sir William Liddell.) You are referring to the present year's figures of the Army? Chairman. 2830. The Estimates.-In the Estimates two years ago they were on a cost basis. *2822. A big drop on the figure of * Qn. 2822. Note by Witness.-On verifying these figures, the total cost of the works debitable to this item is approximately £150,000. Of this £115,000 represents the cost of the main hospital block, families' ward, mortuary and proportion of external services, for 204 beds; thus making the average cost per bed approximately £565, The balance represents the cost of providing accommodation for the nursing and airmen staff, 30 June, 1926.] Sir WALTER F. NICHOLSON, K.C.B., Major [Continued. General Sir WILLIAM A. LIDDELL, K.C.M. G., C.B., Air Vice-Marshal DAVID MUNRO, C.B., C.I.E., F.R.C.S., and H. W. W. McANALLY, Esq., C.B. 2833. On page 47 of the Estimates I notice Items 85, 86 and 87; there seems to be something curious going on here You have quarters for married officers, quarters for married airmen, and again quarters for married officers and airmen? That is for Egypt and Malta. 2834. It is all Malta, is it not?-No. 2835. Item 87 begins Malta, does it? -Yes. 2836. Those other two have decreased and D. has increased. Is that owing to changes of personnel?-With regard to the increase of Malta, the Admiralty do our works for us there, and their original Estimate was too low. We have tried for nine months to get the figure reduced, and finally we had to accept that figure. 2837. What is the reason for the large reduction in Items 85 and 86?-The reason for the reduction there is that the Treasury have insisted that we follow exactly the design of buildings of a temtorary life, not more than 12 or 15 years, which have been erected for the Army at Moascar, near Ismailia. 2838. So you are now down on to the same scale as provided for the Army?Absolutely the same scale. Chairman. 2839. Are those at Moascar evacuated now? No, they are in full use. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) It is the use of identical designs. 2840. But are not those Army troops out of Egypt?-(General Sir William Liddell.) No. They have got two bat. talions at least, I think, at Moascar, some sappers, and some gunners and Army Service Corps. 2841. I thought practically all the regular units had gone?-No. 56840 General Charteris. 2842. The Air Force Works Department deals with lands, does it not? The lands expenditure is included in Vote 4. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) The actual land purchase and land valuation business for the Air Ministry is done through the Controller of Lands at the War Office. 2843. But who is the responsible official in the Air Ministry for dealing with lands? The Controller of Lands in the War Office is the official also of the Air Ministry. 2844. Does he fix the staff employed for the Air Ministry work in the War Office? -No. That is slightly anomalous. The special section of the Controller of Lands which is employed on Air Ministry work is borne on Air Votes. 2845. Do you mean to say then that while the Air Ministry have nothing to do with the control of the work whatsoever they still fix the staff?—No, I think The lands puryou misunderstand me. chase and valuation work is done for us by the Controllerate of Lands at the War Office, who for the purpose have a special Air Ministry section for which we pay, but we do not pay for any overheads, so to say, of that section. We do not pay for part salary of the Controller of Lands himself or of his special central section: 2846. The point I want to put is this: Does the Controller of Lands of the War Office, who works with you, himself decide what staff he requires for carrying out the Air Ministry work?-It is not possible to answer that question absolutely with a yes or no. As a matter of fact, at the present time we are in correspondence with the War Office about the organisation of the Lands Branch; and the actual size of the Air Ministry section does not come into it so much as the question of whether that section need be retained in its present form. 2847. Is there any possible argument in favour of it being retained in its present form if the work is all being done in the War Office?-There are many arguments in favour; in fact at the Air Ministry we regard it as quite indispensable. The position is first of all as regards purchase and valuation that there is so much going on for the Air Ministry at the present time that we G 30 June, 1926.] Sir WALTER F. NICHOLSON, K.O.B., Major ་ ། want to be in direct touch with certain specified persons for that work. 2848. Specified persons where? Whether in the War Office or in the Air Ministry-as a matter of fact they are located away from both the War Office and the Air Ministry. But more important, in a way, than that, is the question of the management in Commands, which is mixed up with it. There the Air Ministry have a different organisation of Commands and of works districts to the War Office; they do not coincide. Consequently it would be inconvenient to us simply to put the matter in the hands of a Command organisation that is based on different geographical areas and different organisation. I do not know if I make myself clear. 2849. You make it quite clear that the convenience of the Air Ministry is much better served by having the thing separate but what you do not make clear is whether there is any economy effected by that or whether in fact there is not a good deal of extravagance caused by it? I do not think there is extravagance in it, but I tell the Committee quite frankly that I do not myself regard the organisation as perfect at the present time; but I am really debarred from discussing the thing in great detail, because the Government are actually considering this whole question of lands organisation. Chairman. 2850. As the result of Sir Howard Frank's Committee, you mean?—Yes, and more recently. It has been under very active consideration quite recently, not only for the Air Ministry and the War Office, but for the whole of the Services. Captain Bourne. 2851. To keep on this question of lands for a minute, you have got 8 Land Officers?-Yes. 2852. It is page 97 of your Estimates. Vote 10, B3. What are their functions? -I do not know that I am in a position to say exactly what the functions of each of these Land Officers are, but they carry out the headquarters work of valuation and purchase and negotiation and preparation of purchase contracts up to the stage at which it is handed over to the lawyers to carry on, and they also act as a central body that visits the Air Force districts and looks into the local management. There they are in relation with the local Works and Buildings Directorate, and perhaps Sir William Liddell could give some details as to how they operate in the Commands." 2853. Do you not approach the Valuation Office if you want to purchase & property? I understood all Government Offices went to the Government Valuation Office if they wished to purchase, in order to find out what is a fair price to give? No, that is not the present system. We do not go to the Inland Revenue Valuation Department. As a matter of fact it is the central use of that Department by all Departments which is at present under the consideration of the Government, who have not come to any decision on the matter. General Charteris. 2854. The War Office does go, does it not? No. (General Sir William Liddell.) No, the War Office are like ourselves. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) The Controllerate of Lands does this purchase and valuation work for the War Department, for us, and, so far as it is still necessary, for the Disposals and Liquidation Commission, the remnants of the Ministry of Munitions. Captain Bourne. 2855. How much land do you purchase in a year? (General Sir William Liddell.) I think we have got 22,000 or 23,000 acres altogether. 2856. That land is occupied, I suppose, largely with aerodromes ?-Almost entirely with aerodromes except in places like Halton and Uxbridge and other Depots. 2857. Can you make any use of aerodrome land for any purpose except an aerodrome? For example, can you put sheep on it?-Yes; that is the normal practice, 2858. Is it let?-It is let to farmers under restrictions. 2859. Under special covenants?—Yes. 2860. And you have about 22,000 acres all told? I am speaking entirely from [Continued. 30 June, 1926.] Sir WALTER F. NICHOLSON, K.C.B., Major General Sir WILLIAM A. LIDDELL, K.C.M.G., C.B., Air Vice-Marshal DAVID MUNRO, C.B., C.I.E., F.R.C.S., and H. W. W. McANALLY, Esq., C.B. memory; I think it is 22,000 or 23,000 acres. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) I believe that is so. 2861. It would seem to me that eight people to manage that is rather an excessive amount? (General Sir William Liddell.) It is not only a question of management. Take, for instance, what was probably the most important transaction last year, the Hendon Aerodrome for which we paid some hundreds of thousands of pounds. The preliminary work there in connection with the land would be carried out by this branch, and they have acted so far in the preliminary stages to a large extent independently of the Controller of Lands himself, but they make use of his legal department, which is also in direct touch with the Treasury. But the preparation of contracts, subject of course to these legal restrictions and so on, also devolves on the Lands Branch. In addition to that, I think whilst we were searching under this expansion scheme for what will be approximately 30 new stations, (that is to say when the Air Force is fully expanded), to select these stations I believe actually some 600 stations were reconnoitred, and possibly we had alternatives of three or four places for every single station selected. All these alternatives had to be examined, and the land valued in conjunction with my people, who deal of course with the drainage, the water supply and all the subsidiary works. In this respect the Lands people have been extremely busy. 2862. Are they part of the War Office staff? As a matter of fact, they are Air Ministry staff bedded out with the War Office. 2863. Is there any reason that you can see why the Command Land Agent should not do some of this work?-The Command in Scotland, I think, does the main part of the work, if not all. In the other Commands, I believe, they do a certain amount of work for us in connection with forced landings and that sort of thing; but as regards what you might call the routine management of the estate, the Command Land Agents do not come in. It would mean an increase of the Command Land Agents' staff. 2864. Is the amount of routine work very heavy?-I think it is fairly con. siderable. I think there are between 50 56840 and 60 stations of the Air Force in England. 2865. If you make a contract to let the grazing of a certain aerodrome, do you make it annually and renew it each year, or is it a more or less permanent contract?-I suppose it is an annual lease, but I do not know, really. 2866. It is not a very great deal of trouble to get tenders out every year; I should have thought one man could manage it easily ?-It is not simply that. The management of Halton alone is a fairly big matter. (Sir Walter Nicholson.) Somebody there has to get in relation with the Forestry Commission, as we are acting there under the advice of the Forestry Commission, and there is a very considerable amount of correspondence in one way or another about it. I have already said that the organisation is open to possible criticism as not being thoroughly logical, and that it is to be reconsidered in connection with the general review of the subject that the Government is at present conducting. But granted that the present organisation has to be carried on at the present time, I can assure the Committee that the actual amount of work done by these officers has been repeatedly looked into at intervals of about six months, to make sure that they are all very fully employed; and I am quite satisfied, personally, that they are all of them fully employed. 2867. Do you think it would be possible to get any economy in administration generally if you and the War Office had a combined system of interchangeable officers; because a great deal of your land is very close together?-I am not personally convinced about it at all, but it is a fact that the War Office have written to us suggesting that there are some economies to be made in that direction. That was being considered, but the consideration of that is really inevitably to some extent suspended pending a general Government decision on the question of the new Valuation Department. 2868. On page 51, Vote 4, Appropriations-in-Aid, I notice there is an increase in sales of timber, hay, &c., of approximately £70,000. That seems to be a very large increase. Can you give us some reason why you should estimate this enormous increase?-Hendon is substan G 2 |