16 June, 1926.]

Chairman.

1354. Have you no responsible Engineer stationed at different parts of the globe? -We have a staff in Shanghai.

1355. Have you not a staff somewhere else than in London, or is that all worked from London?-It is generally 'worked from London, but we do use Advisory Architects who are residential in the district, very often.

1356. Are they English? No, foreign. 1357. You use foreign architects?Yes, merely in an advisory capacity. That is to save us sending a man out to Vienna, for instance. If there is any sudden demand by a Minister for this, that or the other, we do not have to send an officer from England; we ask this advisory officer to go and see it and give us a note of what is wanted and to do it. 1358. You have never considered the possibility of employing a sort of travelling architect or engineer, somewhat on the lines of Attachés, who are responsible for, say, four or five Legations?— Our people do travel. All our staff in the Diplomatic and Consular Section do travel, but we do not necessarily give them a continual area to travel in. They only travel in respect of specific works as required. They would certainly travel if we had to build a new Legation in x town.

1359. How do you carry out your ordinary and usual inspections? We have our buildings inspected on an average once every 12 months or 18 months, and our officers do travel to do that, but they do not keep rigidly to the time period, because they wait until such time as they have work calling them into that district.

1360. The Fighting Services presumably require a certain number of Inspectors to look at their ordinary barracks and other accommodation from time to time and for similar purposes. Do you work into each other's hands?You mean where they have barracks and we have our Diplomatic work?

1361. That is what I am talking about? There is nothing that I know of. In Tokio, for example, they would probably want accommodation for the Naval Attaché and the Military Attaché. We should build that because we are building the Embassy.

1362. I was thinking more of Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, and places of that kind? We do not do anything for them in Hong Kong or Egypt. 1363. Do they do anything for you?No.

56840

[Continued.

1364. Have you ever considered that point of view?—Yes, we have, but our work is purely in connection with the Legation Work, which requires quite special knowledge of the problem, and I do not think the War Office would lay any claim, so far as I know, that they have officers qualified to deal with that class of work.

a

1365. I was only talking about the work of inspection. I presume it is necessary from time to time that all Public and Government Departments, particularly in some of those hot climates where, as you know, buildings behave in a curious way, should be inspected by an engineer or by an architect, to see if they are falling to pieces or if any repairs are required, otherwise you might have sudden collapse and have to spend a great deal more money than would otherwise be the case. I presume barracks are very often in much the same position and also need inspection and that various property under the Admiralty or the War Office in, say, large stations like Malta, or Gibraltar, could be inspected at the same time as property under the Office of Works? I doubt whether there are any barracks in the positions where we hold Legations; certainly there are none in Tokio.

1366. Are you not responsible for Consulates as well as Legations?-Yes, but a lot of our Consulates are merely rented premises.

Sir Philip Pilditch.

1367. How do you manage about the inspection of. new works during the time that they are under execution?-We have an officer there; we always put an officer in charge.

1368. You have a sort of Clerk of the Works?-A Clerk of the Works or a Civil Engineer, or somebody of that kind.

1369. From England?-From London. 1370. If it is large enough? If it is large enough.

1371. If it is a smaller thing, would you employ local English talent?-No; we would employ a local architect of standing who is spoken for by the Minister or the Consul as being a satisfactory person. We make an arrangement with him to carry out the small works of alteration or adaptation.

Sir Fredric Wise.

1372. With regard to Shanghai, have you an important official at the head there? Yes, we have an architect there. D 3

16 June, 1926.]

1373. Why could he not do the work on the Tokio new building instead of sending two men out from here?-He will be in general control, but the Tokio buildings are special buildings. They have to be earthquake resisting. They have to resist an earthquake co-efficient of a quarter gravity, and the actual supervision there is supervision to see that the reinforced concrete work is perfect in every detail, and that imposes continual inspection at the site.

1374. Was it necessary to send two people out? I think two were sent out? -No, we have not sent two out yet. As a matter of fact, we send out one of our officers to inquire into the possible methods of obtaining material for the execution of the work, before we start.

1375. Perhaps it did not come under your Department?-Yes, it did.

1376. I understood two were sent out because the Shanghai man or the Japanese architect would not take the responsibility as to where the building should be, and therefore two were sent from London ?-That was in the Debate in the House on our Estimates, was it not? I do not think that is actually in accordance with the facts. The facts are these: that our architect at Shanghai who takes control of all the Consular buildings in the East, including towns like Tokio and Kobe in Japan

Chairman.

1377. Would that include the Malay Peninsula?-Yes, it goes right down to Bangkok.

he

1378. And Singapore?-We have not anything at Singapore. It goes to Bangkok. He was as a matter of fact an officer whose leave was due and was absent; he takes long leave every three years. We wanted to find out whether the situation in Tokio was in fact such as to allow us economically to build the Embassy now, whether materials would be available and whether labour would be available and whether there were any big contracting firms through whom we could function in the execution of the work, and all other general points. We therefore decided to send a thoroughly skilled officer out to go into the whole matter and give us a report; and one of my officers went. We did not send two people out. On his report

we shall decide how we shall execute that work in Tokio.

[Continued.

1379. The Mond-Weir Committee recommended that there should also be another Departmental Co-ordinating Committee set up apart from the one of which you are Chairman, in reference to accommo dation. Is that the Committee of which Sir Arthur Durrant is Chairman?-Presumably, yes; I do not know anything about the functioning of that Committee.

1380. You know that he is Chairman of a Co-ordinating Committee?-I do not even know that; I have not kept in touch with that.

1381. In the Report, at paragraph 3 on page 3, it states: "Our attention was subsequently called to the fact that the question of concentrating in one department all Government purchases and sales of land and buildings and the management of the estates of the Crown and Government property was being considered by a Committee, of which Sir Howard Frank was Chairman. We accordingly decided not to examine into the question of the acquisition, management and disposal of Government lands." Was that Committee's Report published? -I do not know. I had nothing to do with it. Sir Arthur Durrant can answer all these questions; he deals with the question of accommodation of lands.

1382. Does he deal with the question of sales? No, not disposal; he deals with the disposal of our own lands only.

1383. Do you?-No.

1384. Which department of the Office of Works deals with the question of sales and disposal?-Sales and disposal as a result of the War are still being carried on by a sort of residual body of the old Disposals Board, which is functioning under the Treasury at the moment.

1385. Am I right in thinking that the Office of Works has a Department which deals with sales and purchases of lands other than lands the property of the three Fighting Services?—Yes.

1386. Who is the official responsible for that? Sir Arthur Durrant.

1387. I thought he only dealt with accommodation ?-No, he deals with lands as well. We overlap with him somewhat. We have to decide whether the land he proposes to buy is going to be suitable for the function of the building which we have to erect; but he is primarily charged with the responsibility for lands. 1388. He would be prepared to answer questions on that?-Yes.

1389. In paragraph 49, on page 11, of the Report there are recommendations.

16 June, 1926.]

1394. Could you tell me from your general knowledge whether the Office of Works purchase their cloth for the messengers quite independently of other Government Departments, whether it happens to be the same pattern or a different pattern?-I could not say.

1395. Is there any attempt made at standardisation?-I gather you would have to put that question to our Controller of Supplies.

1396. Would it be possible for Sir Arthur Durrant to obtain an answer to that question for us, because I do not want to call a lot of witnesses on small points?-I could obtain an answer. If a transcript of that particular question is sent to me I can easily get a reply to that; I did not put it down at the moment.

1397. What I want to find out is whether there is any attempt to ensure co-ordination with regard to the cloth bought for Government messengers, in reference to the cloth bought for other Government servants. For instance, the

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[Continued.

blue serge used in the Post Office and by prison warders?—Yes, I have the question; I will see that you have the information.

1398. With the idea of a larger bulk purchase and saving in price?—Yes.

1399. The object of these Technical Coordinating Committees, I gather, was to achieve standardisation, and the question is whether one Government Department which, although it may not be purchasing a great deal, is purchasing in the long run a considerable amount of one particular cloth, is working in conjunction with another Government Department? -I had better ask also whether our Controller of Supplies is a member of this Clothing and Textiles Committee.

1400. Yes, if you will please. You have a representative on the General Stores Committee, because you supply general stores to all the civil Departments?Yes.

1401. Do you supply any stores at all to the fighting Departments; for instance, do you supply ink to the War Office?-No, the Stationery Office would do that.

1402. Do you supply furniture to the War Office?—Yes, our Controller of Supplies would supply that.

1403. He will tell us that, will he?Yes.

1404. Sir Arthur Durrant deals with the question of furniture? It is our Controller of Supplies, Mr. Allum, who deals with the question of furniture and supplies generally.

1405. You cannot answer any question about furniture at all?-No, I can answer generally, but I do not think my knowledge would be exact.

Colonel Woodcock.

1406. Do you have any check upon the different orders that come in?-I do not mean with regard to the execution of the order. I mean a requisition for certain furniture comes before you, I take it, as head of the Department?-No, it comes before the Controller of Supplies.

1407. That is not put before you ever? -No.

1408. He is the final authority?—Yes. Even if I want a chair in my room I have to go to our Controller of Supplies to give me a chair; because furniture is not my function. My function is building, engineering, maintenance and everything concerned with structure.

D 4

16 June, 1926.]

Chairman.

1409. Do you not think there is a possibility of there being too much overlapping and too many Committees perhaps trying to do the same work? You have a Contracts Co-ordinating Committee of which you are a Chairman, there is a Co-ordinating Committee of which Sir Arthur Durrant is Chairman and five Technical Co-ordinating Committees quite apart from a number of Research Coordinating Committees which also exist? -When you get a real bad attack of Committeeitis like that, I think it takes a long time to recover. I cannot work in Committees; I can do a specific job but I find endless Committee work on numerous things is usually unproductive.

1410. You agree with me that it is possible to have too much of that kind of thing? Yes.

1411. How often does your Co-ordinating Committee meet?-Only about twice a year.

1412. Are steps taken to see that the recommendations of the Committee are carried out? Have you ever made any effective recommendations?-I think so. I think we are doing good work in the way of co-ordination of the practice of the Departments. That is where I think we are doing useful work.

are

1413. You mean you all doing things the same way? We are trying to. For example: "Our Maintenance section has a great contract covering over a million pounds for its triennial period; should not other triennial contracts. follow these lines," and so on. We are trying to do practical work of that kind of a co-ordinating character in the practice of the Departments in the execution of work; and that I think is useful; I should say that is not wasted work. Whether the results are adequate to the effort or not, is another matter.

1414. Are you in a position to answer any questions with regard to sale of surplus stores? No, I am not dealing with that.

1415. Does Mr. Allum deal with that too? No, I think the sale or surplus stores is being dealt with by this residual body of the Disposal Board acting under the direction of the Treasury.

1416. I am not talking about war stores; I am talking about stores which naturally become surplus from time to time?-Mr. Allum would answer that.

1417. The sale of war stores is a matter which will eventually die out altogether? - Quite.

[Continued.

1418. How about the purchase of fuel and oil? Is Mr. Allum the representative of the Office of Works on the Oil Contracts Co-ordination Committee?-You will have to ask him that question, sir. He does purchase fuel for the Department; that is part of his function. I do not know whether he is a member of that Committee.

General Charteris.

1419. Going some way back in the evidence, I understood you to say that if you were employed in work in Mesopotamia you would naturally use the Air Force for it as they are in Mesopotamia; but in Egypt do you not, for annual repairs, use the military service at all which exists in Egypt for the annual repairs of the military buildings?-No, we do not.

1420. Is there any reason why they should not be used?-The reason is that they do not consider themselves in a position to execute that work, as far as one understands it.

1421. Is that an arguable proposition as regards maintenance?-As regards construction there may be something in it; as regards design obviously a great deal; but as regards maintenance surely anyone who could maintain a building could maintain a building in the same form? Well, can he? I should say no. If you are dealing with an important legation with all sorts of decorations, etc., after all you have to maintain it in the same way that you maintain, say, a very important residence like the First Lord's residence in London. Lord Allenby when he was in Egypt did a great deal of entertaining; he had to do so, and the maintenance is a different thing from what you do ordinarily as regards maintenance and repairs of Barracks.

1422. It cannot be very different from the maintenance of the G.O.C's quarters, for instance, which the Army does automatically?—At any rate the point has not arisen.

1423. It seems to me there could be some economy in combining there?-The reason I mentioned Mesopotamia is this. We have no organisation anywhere near it. Therefore quite clearly the first thing to do if we had to do anything in Mesopotamia would be to go to the organisation in that area and say: "Could you undertake this service?"

1424. But that you have never done in Egypt? That we have never done in

16 June, 1926.]

Egypt, because we have always had our own organisation dealing with it.

Captain Loder.

a

1425. Is there any work of such large and technical rature that it could not be performed by the technical Military, Naval or Air Force people and at the same time could not be done by the Office of Works; in fact, work which necessitates a separate civil works Department because it is of such a technical nature?-I could not say that with regard to our work, and I do not think I am qualified to speak with regard to the work of the Services. My view is that there is no work of a technical and professional character that cannot be undertaken by the properly accredited Department organised for dealing with construction; and, to show you the specialised work we have to do, at the moment we are dealing with an installation of a million volt transformers. There is nothing like it in this country at all and we are quite qualified to deal with it, because the sources of information at the disposal of Government officials are so great.

Sir Fredric Wise.

we

1426. Take your carbonisation scheme. -Take the low temperature carbonisation scheme; we had never done anything like that. As a matter of fact during the war built a vatt number of factories, and I do not think we knew anything about the processes of one of them until we built them. The view we take is that if the requisitioning Department requiring a service can be clear as to what they want performed we can give them the building in which to perform that service.

1427. I only raised that point because in paragraph 74 of the Mond-Weir Report it says: "A large proportion of the building and engineering work carried out by the Admiralty, War Office and Air Ministry is of a highly technical character, which cannot be handed over to the Office of Works. "-I do not know the basis of that at all.

General Charteris.

1428. I dare say that refers to design more than to the work. May I ask one other question? You have no works in India at all?-None at all.

1429. No buildings done by another Department for you?-No. We have a

[Continued.