[Continued.

Lord Warrington.

467. Anything done or omitted to be done by any board of guardians, or by any justices of the peace or by any other person whomsoever "?-Section 14 of the Act of 1792 provides that if any person shall be aggrieved by any matter or thing done or omitted to be done by any churchwarden or overseer of the poor or by any of His Majesty's justices of the peace or by any other person or persons whomsoever under and by virtue of this Act it shall be lawful for such person or persons to appeal to the next general quarter sessions.

474. It is explained at the top of page 38 of the Notes?-Yes.

(Clause 97 is passed.)

(Clauses 98, 99 and 100 are passed.)

ON CLAUSE 101.

Chairman.

475. We now proceed to clause 101. There is a long note on it. I think perhaps, Sir Frederick, it would be as well if you told us what you look upon as the point for us to consider? (Sir Frederick Liddell.) I think there is only one difficulty about clause 101 and that is the £10 limitation which occurs in the Acts of 1849 and 1850. That limitation is not imposed by the Act of 1848 which covers paragraph (b).

Lord Warrington.

476. The £10 limitation, you say, is obsolete in practice?-(Mr. Comyns.) Since the War the cost of emigration has gone up so much that it is impossible.

Mr. Hudson.

477. Is that so now under the assisted scheme?-I do not know.

478. Surely under these new provisions, especially for assisted passages and certainly in the case of Canada, ordinary passages not assisted, it is considerably less? Yes, but the assisted passages do not cover the whole ground. There are cases in which for one reason or another the scheme is not available. It has been ascertained that the cost, to boards of guardians, of emigrants assisted during 1925 averaged about £14 10s. per head. (Sir Frederick Liddell.) This limitation was imposed in 1849 and 1850; the value of £10 nowadays is a very different thing.

Lord Warrington.

479. The £10 limit first appeared in the Act of 1849?--Yes.

480. The Act of 1865 threw all the costs upon the union?-Yes.

481. As distinct from the parish ?--Yes. 482. And it left that £10 limit unaffected, did it not?-Apparently, yes. 483. It did not touch that?-No.

484. With the exception of that question the section now really reproduces the law as it is under the three Acts of 1848, 1849 and 1850, with the alteration rendered necessary by the union chargeability? (Mr. Comyns.) Yes, except so far as the £10 limit is concerned. (Sir Frederick Liddell.) The £10 limit does not apply under the Act of 1848, which is the general provision by which they can emigrate any poor person who is chargeable or would, if relieved, be chargeable. to the poor law union.

[Continued.

Lord Warrington.] Should not we leave the clause as it is?

Chairman.

487. I think so. Is the Committee agreed to that, that this clause stands part of the Bill?-With a comment, yes. Chairman.] Yes, we will make that quite clear.

(The Contents have it.)

(Clause 101 is passed.)

Lord Gorell.] May I ask whether we have cleared up the two things we left outstanding?

Chairman.

488. I think we agreed that Sir Frederick should bring up a new clause or clauses. If the Committee agree I should rather like not to deal with those just now. What is going to happen I have no doubt is that this Bill will be brought in again next Session, and I think we had better leave Sir Frederick to bring in his Bill next Session in such form as, on consideration, he thinks fit. -To give effect to the decisions of the Committee.

Mr. Hudson.

489. Does that involve our going through the whole Bill again?-No.

Chairman.

490. There are a great many very small points which I marked myself in going through the Bill. I think I have told the Committee that with their assent I should not call attention to them as we went on, but I thought of suggesting them to Sir Frederick in his new Draft Bill.-With regard to those points clearly only verbal, I should not propose to confuse the Committee by marking all those.

Chairman.] No. You are entitled to bring in a Bill in. such form as you think fit, but we must consider it. I do not know whether we shall be reappointed, but on the assumption that we are, shall swallow our own work over again. Lord Gorrell.] We do not want to go back on Clauses 35, 90 and 91?

we

Chairman.] Not now. I thought it would be as well therefore to go through to the end of Part III.

ON CLAUSE 102.

Chairman.

491. I find this clause very difficult?— I think there are only two questions upon it. It all depends on what interpretation is to be placed on Section 31 of the Act of 1844. I have set that section out on page 41 of the Notes on Clauses. The section provides that unless the guardians in compliance with the desire expressed by such person,” that is to say, the deceased "in his lifetime or by any of his relations, or for any other cause, direct the body of such poor person to be buried in the churchyard or burial ground of the parish to which such person has been chargeable." That is the first difficulty: "the parish to which such person has been chargeable." The Union Chargeability Act destroyed the parish chargeability and made all expenses of relief, including those of burial, chargeable to the common fund of the union. Therefore, there ceased to be any parish of chargeability. The question is what is to be substituted for "parish of chargeability" here? cannot substitute union of chargeability. For one thing the union has no burial ground. If you put in " any parish in the union of chargeability you would be extending the powers of the guardians enormously. If they could bury in the burial ground of any parish in the union you would be imposing an unfair burden on various parishes which have nothing to do with the particular pauper. Therefore I have suggested that the proper parish to substitute for the parish of chargeability is the parish in which the pauper was residing at the time of his death or immediately before he went into the workhouse.

Mr. Neville.

You

492. Have not unions got burial grounds-I know one that has? (Mr. Comyns.) They have been generally discouraged of recent years. In early years guardians used to provide their own burial ground, but sentiment was against that, and the policy has been discouraged for a long time past.

C

[Continued.

Lord Warrington.

493. Instead of having burial grounds they subscribe to keeping up a cemetery or a churchyard, do they not?-Yes, or they bury in the ordinary churchyard or burial ground. (Sir Frederick Liddell.) There is a certain authority for substituting the parish in which the pauper resided before he went into the workhouse, to be gathered from Section 10 of the Act of 1865, which makes express provision to that effect so far as deaths in the workhouse are concerned. For that purpose the workhouse is to be deemed to be situated in the parish in which the pauper resided before he went into the workhouse. Therefore it is only in cases of the death of paupers in receipt of outdoor relief that difficulty arises, and in that case the pauper usually dies in the parish in which he resided and therefore the two parishes-the parish of death and the parish of residenceare the same. But, of course, he might possibly not die in that parish.

494. The way out of the difficulty of the people selecting a very remote burial ground is to construe the words of the Act of 1850 as giving power to and not imposing an obligation on the guardians, is it not?-Leaving out for the moment the question of obligation to comply with the wishes or desires of the relatives. the question is what is to be substituted for "the parish to which such person has been chargeable " in Section 31 of the Act of 1844 ?

495. He has not been chargeable now in any parish ?-No, he is not chargeable to any parish; he is chargeable to the common fund of the union.

496. You must substitute that, must you not?-Except where the union consists of a single parish, and there there is no difficulty

497. Then it is a poor law union?There is no difficulty in the case of a single parish.

499. The change from the ecclesiastical to the civil parish has made it unworkable? You could provide that he was to be buried in the burial ground of the ecclesiastical parish in which the death occurred. That has to be the primary obligation, to bury in the churchyard or burial ground of the ecclesiastical

parish in which the death occurred. Then there are cases where there are Burial Boards.

500. In this section as you have drawn it which is the word " parish intended to mean?-I think it would be held to be a civil parish.

501. Has a civil parish ground? Well, I

mean

Church. Take Chelsea,

a burial the Mother for instance:

I take it if there were burials in London the burial ground of St. Luke's, Chelsea, would be the burial ground of the parish.

502. Of the ecclesiastical parish?-I think of the whole parish. St. Luke's, Chelsea, has been divided up into dozen ecclesiastical parishes, I should think.

Lord Warrington.

a

503. There is no difficulty about the clause as you have drawn it, is there, because sub-clause (2) says, "Every body directed by a board of guardians to be buried," that is if he died in the parish in which the workhouse is situated. Either there is a churchyard or burial ground belonging to the ecclesiastical parish or there is one provided by the civil authority, that is, a cemetery?—Yes.

504. Therefore there can be no difficulty about that. It is alternatively in the burial ground of the parish. It is the same question, only, in the poor law union where he resided at the time of his death, it is the alternative one. case there would be a burial ground whether the parish designated be one or the other?-Yes.

In any

Sir Malcolm Macnaghten.] Has every civil parish got a burial ground?

Lord Warrington.] Not of its own, but there would be one in the parish, either a churchyard or a cemetery, if there is one provided.

Sir Malcolm Macnaghten.

505. Is it not the case that the union would provide the burial ground, not the parish? No.

[Continued.