were at much pains to demonstrate before the last Imperial Conference that it was impossible to send wireless messages a greater distance than between 2,000 and 8,000 miles, and in the case of Leafield the Norman Committee admitted that the arc system of transmission employed was possibly in a state of obsolescence. But if Leafield with its old-fashioned system, instead of the latest thermionic valve, with masts only 300 feet high instead of masts 900 feet high now used in connection with modern highpower stations can give these results, what will be the results from a really up-to-date station? It will mean that we will be able to communicate at least as freely with Australia as we now do with America.

Criticism of Post Office Policy.

If the latest proposal of the Post Office to divide the Empire into two wireless spheres is carried out the comprehensive world scheme adopted by Australia will be destroyed. The Australian scheme provided for the erection of a station at Vancouver and another was to be built at Montreal. If the Post Office takes over Canada as part of its division of the Empire, the Australian plan falls through, and who will build the necessary stations at Vancouver and Montreal? No doubt the estimates of the Australian Wireless Company were based on the assumption that it would have greater freedom of operation, not only in the Dominions, but in foreign countries so as to take full advantage of the alliances into which the Marconi Company have entered. It is not presumed that the one British high-power station proposed to be erected by the Post Office would adequately serve the Dominions, particularly in regard to news. A group of stations is necessary in order to provide for interruptions and to relieve pressure in one direction. In fact the full advantages of wireless will not be attained unless we in England adopt the same policy as in France and be able to have a free interchange of Empire and foreign business. The policy of the British Post Office has always been in favour of State ownership and State operation. There has been a distinct set-back to this policy, especially in regard to operation during the last few years, so that at present the only wireless systems owned and operated by Governments for foreign services is that carried on by the Soviet Government of Russia and by the British Post Office. I do not know what are the financial results under the Bolshevist régime, but the last figures published on the operation of the British Post Office show that against an expenditure of £95,700 for the twelve months ending June 1923, there was only a revenue of £45,700 including £10,000 received from the Foreign Office, showing a loss of £50,000. From a commercial point of view such results of State operation are disastrous.

The nationalisation of a business still in a state of evolution is not likely to be successful. A Government Department will always play for safety. It will not take risks. In this case it will be unable to get the use of the world's latest inventions, and its administration

will sterilise the whole business. Moreover, national spheres for wireless cannot very well be separated from the international. State operation should be limited, but State control should be general, and national interests safeguarded in every direction and ultimate State ownership provided for. The Empire Press Union is equally interested in communication by cables and has been instrumental in bringing about a substantial reduction in press rates before and since the war. The cables are entirely inadequate to meet the needs of the Empire. A few years ago wireless was spoken of, not as an alternative service to the cable, but as a supplementary service. Already such has been the rapid advance and increased efficiency of wireless that before long it looks as if cables will have to take a secondary place. We are keenly interested in the control of cables when licences come up for renewal, and want to see competition between the two methods of communication, as well as competition within each service. While the rates quoted for press messages may seem to be moderate you should remember that what is required is not only cheap rates, but adequate service. The press rate is frequently illusory, because of the delay owing to congestion. Newspapers or agencies have to pay private or urgent rates amounting to several shillings a word. In any case commercial messages have always the preference. What is wanted therefore is not only cheaper rates, but speedy and adequate service. For these means we must look to wireless, to which the future belongs, and find some means of infusing a new spirit into the British Post Office, which has been mainly responsible for stopping progress. The two organisations concerned in all this wireless muddle are the Post Office and the Marconi Company. We cannot get rid of either of them, and we cannot get on without them both.

Wireless communications are frequently interrupted by what scientists call atmospherics. What we are suffering from in this country are the atmospherics which exist between the Post Office and the Marconi Company. Unless some pressure is brought to bear upon these two organisations to clear away the atmospherics and introduce goodwill in place of ill-feeling you may reach an arrangement, but will not secure harmonious co-operation. Without harmonious co-operation on the part of all concerned the Wireless Chain can never be made an efficient link of Empire.

Statement by the Representative of Reuter's.

Mr. Jeans: Speaking as the representative of Reuter, and as such speaking for the whole of the Empire Press, I really can only reinforce what Lord Burnham and Mr. Donald have said. But I think I have a further title to be heard, inasmuch as I myself have heard every wireless discussion which has ever taken place in the House of Commons. I have heard a whole battalion of PostmastersGeneral discussing the subject. Having heard all these statements, perhaps I may be allowed to express my surprise that everything remains just as it was. Substantially, we are exactly where we were [10995] P 3

before the outbreak of war in the wireless position. There has been no material change. Speaking from the point of view of the Dominion journalist, I would like to emphasise the point which Lord Burnham made, and Mr. Donald also, as to the value of competition between the cable companies and the wireless. Once you get competition, the charges of which Lord Burnham complained will, I think, rapidly come down. Competition makes the cable companies, who are always extremely courteous, I must say, still more civil, and the competition of the cable company, in their turn, makes for moderation on the part of Marconi. There is the further more general point of Empire interest. We find, in Reuter's, that where a Dominion is in particularly close communication with the Mother Country, close frequent press communication with the Mother Country, that Dominion is always in closer touch with ourselves than other Dominions with whom press communication cannot, for various reasons, be so frequent. It seems a reasonable presumption that if you get a general increase of communication throughout the Empire, you will have this closeness of touch on a general and extended scale.

The Australian Point of View.

Mr. Taylor Darbyshire: As far as Australia is concerned, there is only one point. It is this, that we Australian big users of wireless transmission and cable transmission are in the exasperating position of knowing that everything is ready for us in Australia for a wireless service and we cannot get a move on this side. We cannot get movement at all. We have been promised it over and over again. When I said "Good-bye" to Mr. Fiske, the head of the Amalgamated Wireless Company, he said at the beginning of the year, "We shall be ready to start in eighteen months' time." We are no nearer ready now than we were then. The delay is on this side.

Mr. Bruce will bear me out. The contracts are all fixed with the Amalgamated Wireless people there, and it is only awaiting the word "go." As a user, I do not mind-nobody does mind-whether it is a Government concern or private enterprise that is handling the question, but we do want the question handled.

The South African Interest in the matter.

Mr. Kerney: The case for South Africa is almost the same as the case for the other Dominions, but there is one very important difference I would like to emphasise. The South African newspapers, in their telegraphic communication with this country, have to rely solely on one cable company. The Australian and New Zealand papers have both an Eastern and Western route for their communications; the Canadian Press have all the Trans-Atlantic companies for their service, but the South African papers have to rely solely on the cables of the Eastern Telegraph Company. That service is a good one to-day; it has been greatly improved in the last twelve months, and I have every reason to believe that improvement has been largely influenced by the prospect of wireless competition. I think, therefore, it is a fair assumption that when wireless communication between this country and South Africa becomes an

accomplished fact, the cable conditions will be improved. That will certainly be for the benefit of the South African papers and for the advantage of their readers, as well as, I think, indirectly for the benefit of the Empire.

Indian Anxiety for Action in the matter.

Sir Thomas Bennett: There is a good deal in saying" ditto" to everybody else in this discussion to-day, and I do not want to repeat any of the general arguments that have been put forward. I would only say that in India the installation of an efficient wireless service would be greatly appreciated, not merely as competing with the cable companies, but as supplementing them, and sometimes as being a substitute for them. Not so long ago, we had some weeks of a very inefficient service, and at that time an efficient wireless service would have been of very great advantage. Now, we are puzzled somewhat to know why there should be the delay in India. The question of principle has been settled, the Government of India have agreed to hand over the service to a private company, and I believe that as soon as the order were given the money would be found for the installation. That makes us a little impatient. There is nothing else that I need say in regard to this matter except that in these days there is a greater call than there has been hitherto for a full and efficient service. A greater interest in home affairs is being taken in India, and I think it is true that in England a greater interest is being taken in Indian affairs.

Lord Burnham: Certainly.

Sir Thomas Bennett: Therefore, a cheaper service would be of great Imperial advantage.

The Human Point of View.

Mr. Vinnicombe: I would simply emphasise the human point of view. The question of Empire settlement is now under discussion. If you can keep people who go to the Western Prairie in touch with what is happening here you offer a greater inducement for them to go. Settlement and communication go hand in hand. In Canada they experience difficulty, owing to cost, in getting the news service so complete as they would like. There was a meeting held only recently in Winnipeg, when it was proposed to curtail the news service from Winnipeg to the Pacific Coast and from Montreal to Nova Scotia in consequence of the expense involved. If you want Empire settlement you must have communication, and it seems to me that a cheaper news service would go a long way to facilitate the operation of the Settlement Act.

Lord Burnham: Are there any questions you would like to put? The Chairman: I will ask my colleagues if they have any questions to ask?

Sir L. Worthington-Evans: I have no questions.

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The Attitude of the Commonwealth Government.

Mr. Bruce: I do not know that questions are going to help very much. The position, as I understand it, is that the Empire Press Union have come to make representations to the effect that it is vital that we should get a cheaper and more efficient Cable Service. That, of course, one entirely agrees with. I take very much the same view that Mr. Hughes did, although I do not express it in quite the same language. The matter turns largely, as far as Australia is concerned, on the Wireless position. As you know, Australia is going forward with the erection of her own wireless station, which will communicate direct with Great Britain, but that station will be perfectly useless unless we have reciprocal stations here. That is a matter which is under discussion now, and I do not think there is very much to be said about it. From my point of view we have got to get reciprocal stations somehow. The Press Union have raised the matter of Wireless, but I will not now go into detail as I am discussing this question at the present time with the PostmasterGeneral.

With regard to the Pacific Cable Board, the position, of course, is an intolerable one, inasmuch as when a cheaper rate is suggested the answer is: "Well, it would be useless to reduce the rate; it would give a worse service, because of the terrific congestion that would take place. The line is loaded to its maximum now." The fact that a Cable Company does extraordinarily good business is not exactly an argument in favour of keeping its charges up, and that position cannot remain indefinitely. This question of communication with Australia is so vital that if we are not going to have wireless, if wireless is not coming into the field to compete with the cable service, then the Pacific Cable Board must put down more lines. They must duplicate; they must do something. Australia, of course, has a big interest in the Cable Company and it is not prepared at this stage to advocate this extension and duplication until it is quite clear what will be our position in regard to wireless. From every point of view, therefore, it is vital to Australia that this question of wireless stations is settled somehow. I entirely agree that we must have a cheap, speedy and adequate means of communication, and we are either going to have it by wireless or we must have more cables. With regard to putting any questions to the deputation, there is nothing one can ask at the present stage. The whole matter is under discussion, and all we can say is that we recognise the necessity for this service which is so urgently demanded.

The Chairman: I thought possibly there might be some points you would like to clear up.

I think the Conference are very much obliged to you for putting the case so plainly. The matter is, of course, one of the subjects under discussion here. We have had a shorthand note taken of all that has been said. We have the statement which, I think, it will probably be convenient to amplify by having Mr. Donald's statement inserted, and, of course, the Conference will consider it in all the