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munity, and if we can reduce the complexity of the subject without any serious sacrifice of revenue, I think we in India will recognise that every effort should be made to that end.

Danger of converting Committee into a Bureaucratic Body.

There is one other point I should just like to touch on before I close, and that is the question of the continuance of the Imperial Shipping Committee. As I have said, we in India think that the Imperial Shipping Committee has thoroughly justified itself by the results it has already been able to show, and we are entirely of opinion that the Shipping Committee should continue to exist, but I could not help thinking as I listened to Sir Halford Mackinder yesterday that the Shipping Committee had owed a great deal of its success to the fact that at present it is a purely honorary body. It commands great weight from that very fact as an impartial conciliating body. I think that we shall have to consider whether, if we convert that body into a permanent body with a paid Chairman, a paid Secretary and a paid establishment, it will continue to carry the same weight. I recognise, of course, that a Committee which has sat, I understand, on an average once a week since it was established three years ago probably may not be able to continue to command the honorary services of the distinguished people who now serve upon it, but I am rather afraid that damage may be done if it is in any way converted into what I may call a bureaucratic body, an official body. I should be rather afraid of giving it powers, as suggested by the Prime Minister of New Zealand, to call upon the shipping companies to produce papers or to produce witnesses. I am afraid that if we conferred these powers upon it, or if the British Government did so, it might at once alarm the shipping community, but, at any rate, I should like to say that the Government of India do hope that the Committee will continue to exist in some form or another.

Vital Interest of the Colonies in Shipping Questions.

Sir Gilbert Grindle: As a member of the Imperial Shipping Committee, I do not like to say anything about its doing good work, but I should like to assure the Conference that it certainly does most interesting work, and I think that anybody connected with the administration of the Colonies and Protectorates in any way is impressed with the advantage of such a Committee being in existence and of our being represented on it. There is no part of the Empire more dependent on shipping than we are. The Colonies and Protectorates are dependent upon the British Mercantile Marine not only for their prosperity but for their bare existence, and they are therefore much more interested in the solution of shipping questions than any other part of the Empire. As regards East Africa, I should just like to add that I understand the East African shippers are not yet entirely satisfied, but they have taken the first step towards becoming entirely satisfied by forming an organisation which will be able to discuss the questions at issue in the spirit of co-operation and mutual goodwill and confidence which is the tradition of the Committee.

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The Chairman: I will now ask Sir Halford Mackinder to reply upon the general points that have been raised on his statement.

SIR H. MACKINDER'S REPLY TO THE DISCUSSION. Sir Halford Mackinder: I will not go into all the points in the different speeches, but there are just a few points I should like to deal with. May I, in the first place, on behalf of the Committee, express my gratification? I am sure when I report it to the Committee it will be the general feeling, that the work that we have tried to do in the last three years, not only has been assessed from the point of view of the endeavour that was put into it, but apparently also it has had the good fortune to meet the practical difficulties that have arisen in more than one part of the Empire.

Discrimination against Canadian Ports.

Mr. Graham referred to the question of the rates for cargo, and he mentioned flour from New York, as compared with Montreal. That is precisely the kind of question upon which agitation arises, and upon which it seems to me it is very necessary to have all the facts impartially worked out. Often one finds that there is a reason. which does not appear on the surface. If Canada wished us to undertake an enquiry of that kind, we should be very glad to see what we could do to ascertain the facts so far as they are accessible on this side, and so far as Canada is able to put them before us on the other side. I rather gathered, from the fact that Mr. Graham raised the question, that his complaint had reference to rates fixed no doubt largely by the United Kingdom owners. If that is so, we shall be very glad to enquire into it if it is referred to us.

The Income Tax Question.

Well then, Sir, Mr. Bruce referred to the question of the income tax and, perhaps, I might just say a word on that. The report which is coming to you will not present any cut and dried solution of the difficulties which we depict. What the report has done is, first of all, to marshal the facts with regard to the whole Empire as to income tax and as to the mode of assessment as it affects shipping, and in marshalling those facts we have had the assistance of the Inland Revenue authorities of the United Kingdom. Secondly, we marshal the grievances as put before us by the shipowners. We have had the assistance of the Inland Revenue of the United Kingdom in our criticism of that ex parte statement; but, as we shall state quite clearly, we have not had the advantage of the assistance of the fiscal authorities of the Dominions, of India, and of the other parts of the Empire.

By way of conclusions, we present you with a number of suggested solutions which have been put forward, without giving you a recommendation as to any one of them, because we recognise that many questions are involved outside our reference. But we have thought that it was within our reference to make quite clear the fact that the variety of assessment in the Empire is so great that

shipowners are involved in heavy and costly work, and, in fact, that the whole situation, though not, perhaps, serious as regards any one jurisdiction, does, when you take a shipping line into account or a tramp owner into account who is dealing with many countries, amount to an impediment to trade. It is a truly imperial question, because, while it is simple in regard to any one jurisdiction, it becomes very complicated for a shipowner who has to consider all the various jurisdictions of the Empire.

I suggest that the Conference would do well to see our Report before it takes further action. The Report does not pretend to give any final opinion, but it does marshal the facts in a way that I think will be helpful.

With regard to the points raised by Mr. Massey, he will remember that in the Report that we made to him in regard to the freights between this country and New Zealand, we drew special attention to the difficulty that was involved by these many harbours and the many calls. I am sure the Imperial Shipping Committee will be very glad to hear that Mr. Massey is considering that question.

Value of Shipping Associations.

May I now take just one other point of Mr. Massey's statement? That was in regard to the Meat Export Control Board, and, at the same time in Sir Gilbert Grindle's statement with regard to East Africa. May I say that the work of the Imperial Shipping Committee is greatly facilitated, and would be immensely facilitated. by the general existence of strong associations of shippers? You have on one side well-organised Conferences of the ship-owners. Of course that is a relatively simple thing to achieve because you are dealing with a homogeneous interest, but anything that could be done throughout the Empire to get the shipper interest to organise itself so that it can negotiate with the ship-owners, and also make authoritative representations to the Imperial Shipping Committee, would very greatly facilitate matters.

The Durban Dry Dock and the Size of Ships.

Well then, Mr. Burton mentioned the matter of the size of ships in South Africa. Of course, the Shipping Committee is aware that at Durban you are making a very large dry dock which is capable of receiving the very largest contemplated ship. The case of South Africa differs from the case of Australia and New Zealand, mainly because the Suez Canal has not to be traversed by a great deal of the shipping that goes there. If there were a traffic between South Africa and Australia on a considerable scale the whole position would be changed. One of the solutions of the rapid service from Australia which we considered, was whether very large ships could not come viâ the Cape. There would have to be subsidies, and we felt that in all probability the South African Government could not subsidise unless a certain amount of space were reserved in those large ships for South Africa. That would mean, of course, [10995]

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under existing conditions of trade, that the ship would have to go partly empty across the Southern Ocean between South Africa and Australia. I hope that nothing that has been said would be taken as implying that we think that where a great work is being undertaken, such as the Durban dry dock, that all possible provision should not be made for the possibilities of the future in regard to the use of very big ships. I am not talking of big ships, but of very big ships. Nobody can give you an authoritative utterance on that matter which will be authoritative for more than a limited time; no one can predict what the future development will be. That matter was discussed by the Imperial Shipping Committee, and the feeling was very strong that we should insert words, and we did insert words, in the Australian Report on the economic size of ships which would prevent our being taken as implying that such a work as the Durban dry dock was a useless work and a useless expenditure. We do not hold that view in that case.

The All-Red Route.

Well, Sir, I do not quite know what the representative of Ireland wanted me to say in regard to the "All-Red Route."

Mr. Riordan: May I mention that I perhaps did not make myself clear when I referred to it as the "All-Red Route"? I merely mentioned that name, because that is what it was known by. I mentioned that the matter had been discussed, I understand, by previous Imperial Conferences. The British Government and the Governments of some of the Dominions were very interested in the subject at the time. The advocates of the scheme I understand claim that, if one of the western ports of Ireland were adapted for this purpose, that instead of Mr. Massey, although he made a record journey, taking 27 days to come from New Zealand to London, he could have done it, according to their figures, in 22 days. Those are really the points. That is all past history of course. What I would like to know is whether that scheme of utilising a west of Ireland port to expedite the trade between these countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, has been abandoned, and, if so, whether it would be possible to give any reasons for its abandonment.

Sir Halford Mackinder: Well, if the Government of the Irish Free State chooses to put the case before us, we should be very glad to enquire into it and to give you a report. It would be a matter of much interest to us to give a report to the Irish Free State, and if it would be of any help that the facts should be shown in such a way that you could put them before the Irish public, we should be only too glad to assist.

Mr. Amery: May I say a word on that same subject now? I took a considerable interest in it in the old days. Mr. Riordan is quite right in saying that it occupied a very considerable part of the time of Imperial Conferences of fifteen and twenty years ago, and it is conceivable that it may again in future. The scheme was that in the first case this country should be linked up with Ireland

by train ferry, so that trains could run straight through to a harbour in the west of Ireland. The harbour was to be Blacksod Bay (which is the nearest to the mainland of Canada) Cork or Galway, with 22 or 23 knot steamers, so that Canada could be reached in four days. Then accelerated train service across Canada and accelerated mail Vancouver-New Zealand so as to make it possible to get to New Zealand in just over twenty-two days.

I went into it very closely at the time. The financial obstacles to the scheme have increased since, owing to the cost of high speed shipping. There is the Panama Canal as an alternative for freight. There is the air possibility purely for mails at very high speed, and there is also the substantial difficulty that apart from mails and passengers there would not be any great volume of traffic either on the link Ireland to Canada or on the link Vancouver to New Zealand to justify the high speed, short of an altogether inordinate subsidy, till traffic on both sides had developed very considerably. If Ireland develops and by a great development of the system of train ferries is able from a port in western Ireland to distribute goods at once all over the British Isles and if the total volume of traffic for Canada increases very greatly I daresay that scheme. which does make use of the fundamental geographical fact that the Atlantic is much narrower as you get further North, that scheme may come into very practical consideration again, but I imagine at the present moment that the subsidy required to carry it out would be in excess of the economic advantages.

Sir Halford Mackinder: If Mr. Riordan wishes it examined we can examine it, but I think the facts that have been stated by the First Lord of the Admiralty would be found very pertinent in all probability at the present time.

Mr. Riordan: The First Lord has thrown a great deal of light on what I wanted to know.

Extension of Committee's Powers Deprecated.

Sir Halford Mackinder: There is only one other point which you, Sir, expressly asked me to say something about, otherwise I should have felt that it was rather a matter for the Conference to deal with than for me to say anything upon, and that is in regard to the Committee itself. In regard to its powers, I very much hesitate to accept the idea, so far as. I am concerned, that they should be increased. I doubt whether, if you had power to send for witnesses and for documents, you would, in fact, get a great deal more. You would have to know of the existence of the documents, and you then have to be able to interpret them. Let us say they are the books of a great company. I have sat on several Government Committees where the enquiry has been very safely burked because you could not interpret accounts unless you knew a very great deal of the industry or the particular line of commerce which was involved. I feel quite sure if we once get on those sort of terms with the shipping companies we shall be able to do far less than we have

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