matters, to work out to the best of our ability practical steps that could be taken to improve the producing and the trade prospects of any part of the Empire. If I might put it in this way, I would say that we look at each as playing as a side and for the side.

Effects of Existing British Preferences on Imperial Production.

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Now Mr. Bruce gave figures which proved very conclusively the value of the Preferences, and the effect of the Preferences which the Dominions had created. Even the Preference which we have created, and which exists to-day, has had a very marked effect on directing the course of trade and stimulating Imperial production. For instance, in the three years before the war, in cocoa, 48 per cent. of what we consumed came from the Empire; in 1922-23, 93 per cent. was coming from the Empire. Coffee-you had 21 per cent. before the war, before there any Preference; 95 per cent. in 1922-23. Sugar, 69 per cent. coming from within the Empire in the pre-war years; 22 per cent. of our total imports coming from within the Empire in the last year. For molasses you get somewhat similar figures. Then you get the effect on dried fruits, of which I shall have a good deal to say in moment. But even with the rate of Preference that there is to-day-take currants, practically negligible before the war-04 per cent. of our consumption came from within the Empire last year 65 per cent. Raisins, 25 per cent. coming from within the Empire before the war: 168 per cent. this year. Raw tobacco 14 per cent. before the war; 62 per cent. to-day. Then, when you go into the industrial sphere-motor-cars--that is not without its interest to Canada-in 1919-20, when the Preference was just starting, just over 13 per cent. of the importation coming from within the Empire; last year, 1922-23, 32 per cent. coming from within the Empire. The same sort of thing you find happening under the industries, which are the subject of Part I of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, essential industries which we had to have for the safety of the Empire in an emergency, and essential to this country also in peace, but made free throughout the Empire. Take things coming in from Canada like cameras and optical lenses; the immediate effect of that free Preference was to develop industry, trade and importations on a considerable scale, thereby bringing new money, new capital, more work, more opportunity and more settlers into the country.

Well now, take those few figures-I do not want to dilate too much, the field is unlimited-but does not that show the value of the policy, does it not show, without opportunity of contradiction I think, how sound a policy it is, that, wherever in this country we have a duty, we should give to the Empire a Preference on it, and that we should make that Preference as effective as we can?

Specific Proposals of His Majesty's Government.

Well now, I said I would at once on behalf of the Government put forward certain specific proposals immediately. We have considered them particularly exactly in the light that Mr. Bruce

and Mr. Massey have laid stress upon. The importance of securing to the settlers-Mr. Bruce cited the Murray River, but there are other areas also as well as that-a market for all the different kinds of fruit which they produce, and not only that, but the development of all the ancillary industries, canning and so on, that go with it.

(1.) Dried Fruits.

Let me take these specific proposals; let me take dried fruits first. At the present moment dried figs, raisins and plums-which I believe for some horticultural reason include apricots but exclude peaches are dutiable at the rate of 10s. 6d. a hundredweight coming from foreign countries, and the Empire receives a Preference of one-sixth, which is a Preference of 1s. 9d. a hundredweight. What we would propose is that the duty upon the foreign imports should be maintained at 10s. 6d. a hundredweight, and that all Empire products should come in free of duty, entirely free.

(2.) Currants.

Then I want to take the case of currants, which, while subject to duty, are in a different position. At the present time the duty on dried currants is 2s. a hundredweight, and there is a preference of one-sixth in favour of the Dominions, that is 4d. Now, without any question, we should of course be prepared to admit the Empire produce free, but if we did that alone that would mean there was 2s. against the foreigner, and the Empire currants came in free; that would only be a Preference of 2s. I think you know what the position is in regard to currants. There is a Commercial Treaty between this country and Greece, which has in fact been denounced, but is retained subject to three months' notice on either side, under which we are precluded, so long as it is in force, from raising the duty above 2s. On the other hand, if you are satisfied that you are able to produce on a large and adequate scale, and that in order to do that a larger Preference is necessary, a larger rate of duty, we should be very ready to consider at a future date raising the rate of the currant duty to some measure which. while admitting Empire produce free, would give you a more effective Preference, and to fix here and now, in the course of this Conference, the rate of duty and the date at which that increased duty should be imposed. What I take to be the necessity for you, is to know that if your people undertake the growing of these crops there will be an effective Preference by the date the crop is ready for shipment, and we should enter into an arrangement that the duty would be put on in time to meet that.

Mr. Massey: Do you propose to fix the duty for a specified period, that is to say, for a number of years? Do you intend to attempt anything in that way?

The Chairman: I was going to make a proposal on that over sugar; that is a matter which certainly should be open for discussion. We have a specific proposal to make in regard to sugar which I think of exceptional importance, and we should be prepared to

discuss it in regard to any of these products. Then I want to come to the other classes of dried fruits which are not at present subject. to duty at all. Our Tariff is rather complex and quite illogical in this matter. As I say, some classes of fruits are subject to a duty, some are not subject to duty at all.

(3.) Other Dried Fruits.

Now in regard to the other dried fruits, for example, dried apples, dried pears, and dried peaches, which are not subject to any duty, we would propose to take those types of fruit which are of interest to the Dominions and which they are growing, and put a duty of 10s. 6d. a hundredweight upon the foreign fruits and admit the Empire fruits free.

Mr. Massey: Dried fruits again?

The Chairman: Dried fruits, that is to say, if I may summarise it, in regard to the dried fruits now subject to a 10s. 6d. duty, we keep the duty at 10s. 6d. and give you 100 per cent. Preference. As regards the other dried fruits which are not subject to any duty at all, we take those which are of interest to you, and we can settle the list, and put a 10s. 6d. duty upon those and give you 100 per cent. Preference on them. So much for dried fruits.

(4.) Other Preserved Fruits.

Now let me take the case of preserved fruits, for example, canned and bottled. Except for fruits which I have named, preserved fruits are not subject to any duty except upon the sugar content, if any. Here again we think we ought to be able to do something to complete the encouragement offered to the fruit grower, and to do something of value both to the grower and to the development of the ancillary industries. What we would propose would be that we should put an all-round duty of 5s. a hundredweight on the types of preserved fruits which are of interest to you, and admit your stuff free. That would mean that this fruit, when preserved with sugar, would obtain a double advantage. It would first of all obtain the Preference in respect of the sugar content, and it would then obtain a 58. Preference on the fruit content. As I say, the list that occurs to one contains things like apples, pears, pineapples, peaches and nectarines. But we can settle a list which would be complete. We want to make it as complete as possible. I would only mention there one small point. We would wish to exempt fruit pulp for jam making. It is a very important raw material for our jam makers. I only want just to table that exception now.

Mr. Massey: It will all come to you in the form of jam?

The Chairman: No, it won't, because we propose to tax jam. Jam is preserved fruit and will be subject to the double duty, first of all on the sugar content and then the 5s. duty on preserved fruit; so that is all right, Mr. Massey. So much for fruit, and I think that covers the whole area of the fruit grower's operations.

(5.) Sugar.

Now let me take sugar. At the present time sugar is dutiable. according to a scale which depends on the polarisation of the sugar, with a basic rate of 25s. 8d. I think it is, a hundredweight on fully refined sugar. Empire sugar enjoys a Preference of th, that is about 4s. 3 d. a hundredweight or nearly a halfpenny a pound on refined sugar. Now that is a substantial Preference undoubtedly, but what we have felt and what has certainly been strongly put to us is, that if it was known throughout the Empire that the Preference -what I call roughly a halfpenny a pound-was going to last, that is quite good enough for growers to go in and develop sugar growing on a large scale and put capital into it. But supposing we were to reduce our sugar duty considerably in the next two or three years, and the Preference was only to remain 4th and was therefore going to fall substantially below the halfpenny a pound, all the growers' calculations would be upset. Therefore what we would propose in regard to that is, that we should give that guarantee of certainty over a period of, say, ten years and that we should undertake that the sugar Preference should not fall but be maintained at its present rate, which, as I say, is practically a halfpenny a pound, so long at least as the duty on foreign sugar did not fall below that level. That I think would give just the security which the sugar growers in the Crown Colonies and the Dominions want to make sure of before engaging in further work, and it is of enormous importance, in view of our financial commitments elsewhere, that we should draw as much sugar as we can from the Empire.

(6.) Tobacco.

Then I want to take one other item. I have dealt with the whole of the fruits; I have dealt with sugar, and now I want to come to tobacco. At present the duty on tobacco varies according to kind, being higher on cigars and unmanufactured tobacco. On unmanufactured tobacco it is about 8s. 2d. per pound, on which the Empire enjoys a Preference of one-sixth. That is to say about 1s. 4. on raw tobacco. With regard to tobacco, we want to submit two alternative propositions for consideration; either that, in the same way as we propose to deal with the sugar duty, we should stabilise the tobacco Preference, so that, so long as the duty was maintained at a level which permitted of it, the Preference would not fall below. its present actual cash value per pound; or, alternatively, that we should increase the rate of Preference, which is now one-sixth, to one-quarter; that would make the Preference about two shillings in the pound, as against 1s. 4d. at the present time. So we would submit those two alternative propositions with regard to tobacco.

Spirit in which Proposals made.

Now we want at once to table those proposals as an immediate. and practical contribution conceived in the spirit of making Preference within the existing tariff as effective as we possibly can. General Smuts, I think it was, said that without revolutionary changes he thought we could do much of real value. We feel so too, and it is

in that spirit we make those proposals. But let me make this clear. By making those immediate proposals we do not in the least want to pre-judge or to prevent or to prejudice the discussion of any other proposals or of any aspects of this question. We ought to face them all-it is what we are here for.

We all of us know that there are difficulties, but I think I speak not only for my colleagues, but for the whole Conference when I say, "Do not let us shirk it"; we have come here as a complete Imperial Economic Conference; let us face all the issues. Let us see what the facts are; and above all do not let us content ourselves or pass on to our constituents outside throughout the Empire formulæ in the place of facts.

Procedure for Dealing with Mr. Bruce's Proposals.

I do not want at this moment-and I am sure you would not expect me to follow all the suggestions or to consider all the questions which Mr. Bruce raised this morning. All of them are essentially germane to the subject. All of them are subjects which we ought to discuss here, and I would, at this moment, only say this. I think we have felt that a Royal Commission would not really be the best body to debate this problem. After all, I am not sure whether Mr. Bruce meant precisely what we understand by a Royal Commission in what he said. He used it rather as a term of art or description I thought, unless I misunderstood him. What he said was in effect, "We want to get some body which can approach these questions impartially, which can carry conviction." Well, if an Imperial Economic Conference cannot approach these questions impartially, cannot carry conviction when it makes its findings and recommendations, I do not believe there is any body in the whole Empire which can. Therefore, I venture to suggest that it is this body, sitting round this table, which should have the courage to take these questions one by one and thrash them out.

Mr. Bruce That I would accept quite willingly. I do not know whether this Conference, sitting to the extent that it does, would be able to get through the work very rapidly or efficiently. It might conceivably be more suitable for only part of the Conference to do it, but, provided the thing were investigated at once, I would raise no objection as to what particular body examined these proposals in the first place.

Mr. Massey: I would just like to say that I am very glad the proposal to appoint a Royal Commission is not being pressed. My reason for it is this, and I cannot help thinking what was said on one occasion by a statesman who does not belong to the British Empire, that a Royal Commission was a very convenient way of burying a very difficult subject. I would not suggest that the British Government would do anything of that sort, but I know it has been done, and done pretty frequently, and it has been done overseas. We do not want it to happen in connection with an important subject like this, in which we are all concerned.