13° Julii, 1927.]

62. What will it look like when it is finished?-You will see a vertical row of sheet piling running out to sea, and behind that another series of piles.

63. What is stuffed in between them? -Stuff will accumulate in between them, and they are tied together by a tie bar. 64. How are the interstices filled in? -The accumulation of the silt will fill that in.

65. There is going to be a sheeted bank; then that is to be tied and supported into piles in behind, and you will allow the sand to fill in the space?—Yes, as it is doing behind the existing training walls.

66. Now, have you made an estimate of the cost of constructing training walls on those principles out to the point which you show in your map No. 1?—Yes.

67. And what is the estimate for that work?-£700,000.

68. Your remit was to consider essential works. Are you of opinion that the

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carrying out of that work is essential for the safety of this region ?—Yes. 69. Will there also be necessary a certain amount of dredging?—Yes.

70. You warned me off the photographs several times. May we look at them now? The next one in the series is the Marsh Cut.

Mr. Macmillan.] My learned friends urge me to remind your Lordship that it is four o'clock.

Chairman.] At your convenience, we will adjourn.

Mr. Macmillan.] If your Lordship pleases.

The witness is directed to withdraw.

The Counsel and Parties are directed to withdraw.

Ordered:-That the further consideration of this Bill be adjourned to to-morrow-11 o'clock.

Mr. Macmillan.] I have tried to do so. Mr. Charteris.] As originally proposed the Stoke Ferry drainage which is on the north bank of the Wissey was not in the South Level area.

Mr. Macmillan.] Yes.

Mr. Charteris.] It is now brought into the South Level area by the alteration? Mr. Macmillan.] Yes.

Mr. Charteris.] It is a considerable alteration, and, moreover, the area of the South Level district is made to extend still further north of the Stoke Ferry drainage area?

Mr. Macmillan.] Yes.

Mr. Charteris. Could you give us a 6-inch map which will show us the exact area north of the Stoke Ferry drainage area which is now included in the South Level drainage area, in order that those owners of land who at present are outside the South Level area altogether may know what their position is before this Committee?

Mr. Macmillan.] We have a one inch map which is complete, and which I will ask my advisers to show your instructors. We are also having prepared 6-inch maps of much greater detail which are not quite complete yet. If you will be good enough I will ask my advisers behind to communicate with your people, and they will let you see the 1-inch map; the 6-inch map is not quite ready yet. It shows much greater detail. survey is not quite completed, and I do

The

[Continued.

not want to put anything in which is not in complete shape.

Mr. Charteris.] Quite. I am obliged.

Mr. Macmillan.] The 1-inch map will sufficiently identify the lands for the purpose Mr. Charteris had in view, but the 6-inch when ready will be available.

Mr. Tyldesley Jones.] A new boundary line has been evolved by somebody. It is clearly of importance to everybody in this case that they should have an opportunity of seeing what that boundary line includes on a larger scale than this very small scale map which has been handed in. Would the promoters be able by a certain date to prepare a 6-inch ordnance map, and have it available for inspection by the opponents at some given place, then that would remove any complaints by us of our inability to identify what is in and what is out?

Mr. Macmillan.] May I put it this way, Mr. Tyldesley Jones? It is in preparation. It consists of 15 parts, and I am told by my instructors that they hope to have it ready this afternoon, and can show it to any party. I would not like to bind myself absolutely to this afternoon, but certainly within the next day or two the 6-inch map will be available in 15 parts, and the parties can look at any part which affects them.

Mr. Tyldesley Jones.] Or any other part?

Mr. Macmillan.] Or any other part.

71. When the Committee adjourned last night you were telling us about the first work, the training channel, which is Work A, in Part I of the Third Schedule of the Bill?—Yes.

72. Also referred to and recommended by the Commission of which you are a member? Yes.

73. First of all, you gave us a description in engineering terms of the nature of the training walls. I think you have had prepared for the information of the Committee a little sketch which shows, perhaps in a form the lay mind can more readily understand, what these training walls look like?-Yes.

74. Would you be good enough to hand that to the noble Lord in the Chair? (Same is handed to Chairman.) Perhaps you might explain to my Lord the meaning of your picture.

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com

79. And given some general explanations which you have in turn municated to my learned friends. I should like you please for a moment to revert to the general question of the part which this channel within its training walls is designed to play in the economy of the river?—Yes.

80. Is the key to a drainage system of this sort its ultimate outfall into the sea? -Yes.

81. Is all the water which accumulates in the territory behind ultimately to find its way through this proposed outlet ?Yes.

82. And by the method of confining the water at the outlet between training walls do you attain certain important engineering results?—Yes.

83. What is the benefit of restraining within such walls the outfall from this drainage area? What is the merit of the scheme and the purpose it is designed to serve?

83 and 84. What is the benefit of restraining within such walls the outfall from this drainage area? What is the merit of the scheme and the purpose it is designed to serve?-It had a dual purpose. The first was to confine within a channel of a given width all the water which is flowing out as the tide ebbs, and to prevent its dissipating itself through various channels.

85. Pause just a moment there. Is the effect of dissipation to diminish the velocity of the outflow?—Yes.

86. You desire to preserve, do you, by concentrating the water within a channel the velocity and impetus of the stream? -Yes.

87. That is, of course, the object of keeping the body of the water together within walls that you preserve the impetus of the flow?-Yes.

88. Then is it desirable to maintain the velocity as high as possible because of the Scour which depends upon the velocity of the stream?-Yes.

89. I want just to take it very elementarily, if my Lord will forgive me; one wants to see the principle of the thing. By maintaining the velocity of the stream you equally secure its scouring action?-Yes.

90. And the scouring action is related again, if one may relate it, to an elementary consideration. It prevents the silting up of the channel by the deposit which a slower stream might send down? -Yes.

91. Lastly, does the keeping of the channel free contribute to the efficiency of the whole scheme by maintaining the gradient of the channel?-Yes.

92. If the channel way becomes silted up through deficient scouring then I suppose you lose the gradient of the channel, and, in turn, if you lose the gradient of the channel, that reacts on the velocity; the whole thing is in a circle?—Yes.

93. I see one of the Honourable Members smiling at me because I have been very elementary, but these are the principles of the thing, as I think Sir Murdoch will agree. The key to the whole situation is designed to achieve these objects?—Yes.

94. You spoke of the tide coming down, which on an ebb tide will be composed partly of fresh inland water and partly of the receding tide?—Yes.

95. On the other hand, do the training walls also subserve a purpose from the point of view of the incoming tide? -Yes.

96. What is the effect from that point of view? The training walls are carried out to the point where we have found the minimum quantity of silt in the water, that is of all samples taken out as far as Whiting Beacon.

97. The advantage of getting that water, which is as far as possible blue water, is that the incoming stream on the flood does not contain so much matter in suspension?—Yes.

98. Therefore less material for deposit? -Yes.

99. The line of the training walls as shown on your proposed plan aims at the nearest point of the deep water?—Yes.

100. If one looks at the direction of it one sees it is aimed in the direction of the Lynn Channel?—Yes.

14° Julii, 1927.]

101. And the Lynn Channel is the nearest approach of the deep water to the shore? Yes.

102. Now, I think, we have the general outline of it. You have now shown the character of the works. Is it necessary in connection with the training channels to do two things; first of all, to repair the existing training walls which only go so far down, and, secondly, to construct new or additional training walls further out to sea?-Yes.

103. So that it is a combined operation of repair and new construction ?—Yes.

106. What is the condition of the original works which you say were constructed of stone and faggots? They are very dilapidated.

107. Are these the ones you show us in the photograph?-No. 1 will show them very well.

108. I see a lot of things sticking up there which rather look like a devastated area in France?—Yes.

109. Are these part of the old timber works? Yes.

110. 1 and 2 I had in mind?-That is the repair work done by the Norfolk Estuary Company on the Marsh Cut.

111. That is the degree of the repair work? That is the degree of the repair work.

112. You have shown your photographs 1 and 2 which you have had taken; I think they have been before the Committee. They look to me like the relics of some primeval forest, but what are these pieces of wood that are sticking up? That is really coming to the next work when we come to the Marsh Cut.

113. It is not part of the debris of the training walls? It is not part of the debris of the training walls.

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117. You will have to identify them? -No. 2 going to Marsh Cut.

118. We were discussing the training walls, and you show how you propose to carry them out, and you spoke yesterday of an estimate of £700,000?—Yes.

119. Does that include the new training walls?—Yes.

120. Also the repair of the existing training walls?--Yes.

121. How far inland are these training walls to be repaired?-They will be repaired as far out to sea as a foundation can be obtained.

122. But inland?-Up to where the Marsh Cut will join them-from the seaward end of the Marsh Cut to the extreme limit of the training walls.

123. That is what is embraced in your estimate? Yes.

Mr. Riley.

124. May I ask what is the distance from the Marsh Cut to the extreme point seaward? I think it is written on it.

Mr. Macmillan.

125. Also it is dealt with on page 10 of the Report, if you like to look at it I have scaled it. Is it about 5 miles, Mr. Binnie? Yes, about 5 miles a little over 5 miles.

126. You might give a reference to the bottom of page 10 of your Report, which also gives the length.

Lord Henley.

127. Is the amount of silt in the water likely to vary much at different times of the year? It would vary very much with

different tides, but I do not think it would vary very much at different times of the year. We had samples taken on springs and neap tides.

Mr. Macmillan.

128. I think you might develop that a little bit. We have some statistical information as to the analysis of the water, and it is very interesting?-It is a short Report from the Government Laboratory on the silt samples. It is in my bag.

129. All right; get it out of the bag?It shows the stages of the tide, and how it affects the amount of the silt.

130. You took the samples of the water at different stages of the flood. Subject to my Lord's direction, I have a vast amount of material here, and I do not want to go into details the Committee think unnecessary. I tried to pick out the more salient factors of the scheme. Mr. Charteris.] What is this?

Mr. Macmillan.

131. It is an analysis of the water that has been taken at various points in the channel. You might explain it from the Chair, Mr. Binnie, so that everybody else has the advantage of hearing? That gives the quantity of silt in suspension at various stages of the tide. It shows it varies. If we take West Bank Beacon, which is characteristic of the water now entering the River, when it is quarter flood, it is about 50 parts in suspension up to half flood, when it is 52.4. Then when it gets above half tide level it drops to 15. As the water gets higher the action of the sea advancing over the sand becomes less and less marked. The average at West Bank Beacon at all periods of the tide worked out at 37 parts of suspended matter per 100,000. next one is Hull Sand Beacon, about a mile short of there; that it opposite the end of the proposed training walls. There, instead of getting 49 or 50 parts at quarter flood, there were only 8 parts of matter per 100,000 in suspension, and it rose to 10 at half flood, instead of 52. At three-quarter flood, it was 5.7 instead of 15, the average over the whole period being 7. Then experiments were carried out further out to sea, to see if matters would be improved by going to Whiting Beacon, but there it was about the same. At quarter flood, it was 3.6 instead of 8.10, but when it got to half flood, it was 18.35 instead of 10.48. Three-quarter flood was about the same,

The

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5.65 instead of 5.68, so the average at Whiting Beacon was 8.25 as against 7 at Hull Sand Beacon.

Mr. Charteris.

132. At what depth was this taken ?The actual depth of water was not measured.

133. You cannot give us at what depth the samples were taken ?—Yes, the samples were taken at two-thirds of the depth.

134. But you do not know what the depth was? The depth is not stated. These samples were taken by Captain Mathews for us. It is not stated.

Sir Murdoch Macdonald.

135. It would be easy to arrive at the depths, knowing the tides?—Yes, it would.

Mr. Macmillan.

136. I would like to bring out one or two figures and facts, which I think present the position very simply. First of all, have you ascertained the velocity of the flood tide at various points?—Yes.

137. If you look at your Proof, I want to get out one or two passages at page 4. Have you ascertained the velocity of the flood tide at various points?—Yes, a great deal of evidence was given us on that.

138. I want to get one or two salient things out. Did you ascertain the maximum volume of the flood in August, 1922, at Free Bridge?--Yos.

139. Is that three miles above the seaward end of the Marsh Cut?--Yes.

140. It is interesting to note there the contrast between the velocity of the flood tide and the velocity of the ebb tide. That is a material factor, is not it?Yes.

141. What was ascertained to be the maximum velocity of the flood tide?5.3 miles per hour.

142. 5.3 miles per hour?-Yes. 143. On the other hand, maximum velocity of the ebb tide 2.9 miles per hour?-Yes.

less

144. Therefore, it appeared the ebb tide was travelling with much velocity than the flood tide?—Yes.

145. If travelling with less velocity you had consequently less scour?—Yes.

146. If the water going up on the flood contained a certain amount of matter in suspension, the scour of the ebb tide would be presumably incapable