12° Julii, 1927.]

I propose to resume reading at page 19: "Contributions by County Councils in rsepect of land outside the Drainage District. It seems to us that, although it is right that the main burden of charge for works of land drainage should fall upon the land which may be assumed to be benefited by the works, it is also reasonable that some measure of contribution should be made in respect of the lands, outside the area of assumed benefit, from which the water flows. This contribution has no relation to benefit, but should be regarded as a payment made in recognition of the fact that the discharge of water from outside the area of benefit results in additional expenditure being thrown upon that area. The sum thus payable should be placed to the credit of the general fund of the Drainage District to which the whole area drained contributes, and not to any special fund devoted to works in any particular section. (63). Our Inquiry has, of course, been confined to the Ouse, and our recommendations can relate only to that area; but we recognise that if the principle we recommend is accepted, it might well be extended to the country at large. We now proceed to consider how the recommendation could best be put into effect." At Article 69 the topic is referred to. I must read this: "In the case of the Ouse (and perhaps in that of some other rivers) there is another ground upon which a contribution may fairly be demanded from the general body of county ratepayers. As we have stated, there is a wide tract of the Ouse fen and marshland which is below the level of high tides or exposed to the risk of floods. If the banks that confine the waters are breached or overflowed, widespread inundation ensue which, apart from actual damage caused to highways and other publiclyowned property and to the public health, may seriously diminish the rateable value and rateable capacity of a county. We therefore consider that the ratepayers of the Counties may fairly make a contribution-which might be viewed somewhat in the light of an insurance against loss of rateable valueto the expenses of the body charged with the duty of guarding against such a catastrophe. (70). This contribution should, we think, take the form of an annual charge based on the number of acres of land in each County within the Drainage District, and we suggest that

may

[Continued.

it should be at a higher rate than that chargeable in respect of the land in the watershed outside the District. It would seem to us appropriate that, as the payment would be in the nature of an insurance, it should be charged on the whole area of the County." There is the determination upon what, I think, will probably prove to be the most crucial matter brought before your Committee, my Lord. They have, after considering the pros and cons of the whole matter, come to the conclusion that catchment area and area of contribution ought to be co-terminous, but that within the catchment area, that is to say within the area of contributions, there should be discrimination, and they have described a system of discrimination which, broadly, I may say, discriminates between lowlands and uplands, that is to say, between the low lying region which is actually physically protected and the upland region which is, to a large extent, responsible for the discharge of the waters to the low lying region, and causes the embarrassment there. That is the principle of the scheme.

I think it would be quite appropriate at this stage to introduce your Lordship to the actual provisions of the Bill itself. The Bill is in six Parts and six Schedules. The first part of it deals with the constitution of new drainage districts and Boards, and the second Part deals with financial provisions. I think Parts I and II of the Bill probably represent the most controversial area and I shall tell you at once what we propose to do here. After the Preamble, to which I have already made allusion, the first Clause of the Bill proposes to constitute two new drainage districts. Now your Lordships have all been furnished with a map showing the drainage districts. That is the deposited map. Later on I shall require to ask leave to make one or two slight modifications upon it and perhaps your Lordship will take it with that note, but generally as showing the nature of the scheme it is, of course, accurate. some points, as I shall explain, some difficulty has arisen in actual geographical delimitation.

At

12° Julii, 1927.]

shown, pink, yellow, and blue. Reading that with Clause 1: "The district consisting of the several areas shown in colour on the deposited map shall, by virtue of this Act, be constituted a separate drainage district by the name of the Ouse Drainage District.'" Now that area so coloured is the catchment area of the River Ouse and includes over two million acres of land. To be precise, as near as may be, 2,044,079 acres, or roughly, over 3,000 square miles. It is a territory situated in 11 geographical and 12 administrative Counties. Now you will notice, my Lord, that a portion of the coloured area is coloured yellow, and that represents what is called the South Level District. With regard to what is to be included in the South Level District, we propose, for reasons which I shall explain a little later, to include in the South Level District two portions of the pink area as shown on the deposited plan. We shall, of course, have to ask leave to do that, but the portion which is to the south-east of the main tidal works generally is the South Level District, and it is proposed under this Bill to constitute within the Ouse Drainage area a secondary drainage area known as the South Level Drainage District. It will thus be, as you will appreciate, an imperium in imperio. The general district is the whole coloured area, within that, owing to the special circumstances attaching to it, the South Level area is to be a separate-not independent -but a separate Drainage District Board its area being included within the larger district. It will not, of course, have any responsibility whatever with regard to the main area, but as it embraces an old channel of the River Ouse and the tributaries that flow into it, the Cam, the Lark, the Wissey and the Little Ouse, it has special anxieties and concerns of its own, and special works, being the works I read in the Report, amounting to 216 are special to that area, and the device by which we propose to deal with that matter is to constitute this a special Drainage District of its own embraced within the larger area, but having these difficulties of its own which it would, no doubt, like to administer for itself. The proposal, therefore, is to have one large drainage district known as the Ouse Drainage District, and a smaller district embraced within it known as the South Level Drainage District. For each of these districts so defined geographically

but

[Continued.

there is to be constituted for the purposes of administration a Board. There will be the large Board, the Ouse Drainage Board, and the other Board, the South Level Drainage Board. Their proposed constitutions are set out in the Schedules and I only draw attention to them shortly just now. I find from the Petitions that there is a measure of dissatisfaction with the representation of different bodies upon the governing Board, and that topic will have to be explored at the proper time. It is enough for me meantime to tell you what the proposal is. The Ouse Board it is proposed, should pass through three phases. During the period of the construction of the works which are to be in part defrayed from public moneys, it is proposed that there should only be a small Board upon which the chief representation, the majority of representation I think it is. will be from the Government side. You will see at once the nature of the Board. On its first constitution it is to have 11 Members: "A Chairman to be appointed by the Minister; two persons to be appointed by the Treasury; two persons to be appointed by the Minister; one person to be appointed by the Board of Trade;" and Five persons to be appointed at some time before the appointed day by the existing Board,"with a little more particularisation which I need not go into. Then : "After the expiration of the term of office of the first members of the Ouse Board and until the said first day of November the Board shall be composed of the

following persons." Then you still have 11, and the first lot are the same, but there is a different method of appointment of the five persons. That is not the permanent Board. That is the Board that is to be in action during the period of the expenditure of public money upon the works. Then afterwards there is to be brought into existence a Board of 16 Members whose composition you will see on page 32. Now the Government element to a large extent disappears and the representative element comes to the front. "As from the said first day of November "-that is the first day of November after the completion of the execution of the works for which public moneys are being voted-the composition of the Board is to be: "Two persons to be appointed by the Minister: one person to be appointed by the King's Lynn Conservancy Board; One person to be appointed by the Council of the

12° Julii, 1927.]

Administrative County of Norfolk; One person to be appointed by the Council of the Administrative County of West Suffolk; One person to be appointed by the Council of the Administrative County of Cambridge; One person to be appointed by the Council of the Administrative County of the Isle of Ely; One person to be appointed by the Council of the Administrative County of Huntingdon; Three persons to be appointed by the Middle Level Commissioners "-that is a Board administering the Middle Level area which is roughly though not exactly, the area shown in pink on the map-and "Three persons to be appointed by the South Level Board "-that is the yellow area-and "Two persons to be elected in such manner as the Minister may by order prescribe to represent so much of the lowlands as is not included in the Middle Level District or the South Level District." That is the nature of the main Board. Then the South Level Board is to be composed of 15 Members, and its first constitution is set out. There are a number of gentlemen who, I think, are local persons all interested in the administration of the area. Then it is to be somewhat altered. At first it is simply named persons and "After the expiration of the term of office of the first members of the South Level Board the Board shall be composed of five appointed members, and ten elected riembers." Then there are provisions as to elections and rules for the proceedings of the Board.

There is the first main provision of this Bill

Mr. St. John Raikes.] Before you go further I call attention to this. We seem to be working on different coloured maps and it may cause some confusion.

Chairman.] We have two maps before us here. The one I have now is the one you are showing me in three colours, but I was told that you proposed to work on one containing four colours with green at the top by King's Lynn.

Mr. Macmillan.] That is the map that my friend has. That is all right. May I just explain exactly how that stands, because it is a matter about which confusion may very readily arise.

Chairman.] I think we ought to work on one map or the other.

Mr. Macmillan.] Yes. May I just explain? I may clear up this matter and we will discard, if we may, from our weak suit at once. The position is that when we had to make our deposits we

[Continued.

had not the advantage of the complete survey. When our Bill was prepared, involving, as it did, a discrimination between uplands and lowlands, we at once instructed the Ordnance Survey Department of Southampton to make an accurate survey carrying out the proposals of the Commission, which was that the point of delimitation should be the contour line 20 feet above ordnance datum. Twenty feet above ordnance datum is as near as may be 5 feet above high level of the floods; therefore, to get our line of demarcation between lowland and upland, following the Commissioners' Report, we had to make a survey of this very large district. The officers of His Majesty's Ordnance Department at once addressed themselves to the task, but were unable to complete the whole of it by the time we had to make the deposit, consequently it is necessary for us slightly to correct the line of demarcation between lowlands and uplands, that is to say, where the blue line joins the other colours, because the whole upland is blue-to bring it into conformity with the line which the Ordnance Survey people now tell us is the true 20-feet line. Therefore, between the plan as deposited, and which your Lordship is now working on, and which I identify by saying it has green upon it, and which I propose to work on hereafter, the difference between it and the one we shall work upon, which we call B, is, first we have delineated upon it accurately now for the first time the 20-feet contour line. Now let me just at this stage point out to whoever represents the Borough of Cambridge here, that the 20-feet line does affect their interest because the accurate 20-feet level takes the yellow area into Cambridge. I do not know which of my learned friends represents Cambridge, but there is somebody here representing them.

now

Mr. Wrottesley.] Might we have copies of this new plan? We did not appreciate there was a distinction. We will have the plan you are going to work on.

Chairman.] Let me make it quite clear. The plan you are working on with King's Lynn green is B?

Mr. Macmillan.] Yes. I am explaining the differences between it and the deposited plan. The first thing is im portant, it delineates with more precision the 20-feet contour line, and that more accurate delineation of it involves this, that if you examine the yellow area

12° Julii, 1927.]

you will see in the second edition B it runs into the Borough of Cambridge, whereas it did not before. Part of the town of Cambridge is below the level, therefore it is yellow. There is also the small area running up to Brandon in the Thetford area which comes in now. Those are small matters, but there is this other important difference which you will notice at once in comparing A and B, that to the south-east of the New Bedford River on A there are shown two pink patches. These have been transferred in B, the later edition, to the yellow area. The effect of that is to increase the South Level Drainage District, and the reason why that has been done, transferring a portion of the pink to the yellow, is this, that whereas that system of treating these two pink areas to the south-east of the Bedford River separately was recommended by the Commission and they are treated separately in Clause 7 of our Bill, on further examination of the position we are satisfied that it would not be equitable to exclude those two areas from the yellow, being the South Level District, because if they were excluded from the yellow they would of course be in the Joint Board's district, and they would then under Clause 7 of the Bill have to make a special contribution in respect of the benefit they would receive from certain of the works. Now we had accordingly to consider the position of those patches, and we have satisfied ourselves that it will be more equitable to include them in the yellow, being the South Level district, and to absolve them from the special contribution proposed in Clause 7 of the Bill. The result will be, I am advised, that they will be better off financially If they are so treated they will then pay the yellow area's rate, but they will not have to pay the special contribution the Commissioners suggested. We are satisfied the Commission in proposing that these areas should be treated specially cannot have had all the information before them that we have had on an examination of the matter, and we think those who represent these areas probably will recognise we have done well. Of course it really does not affect the Bill itself, because it is only a question whether those areas are to be in the South Level district. That is one of the modifications it will be necessary for us to propose for your acceptance, and I should not imagine it would cause

[Continued.

any difficulty. At the end of the day of course the Bill, if you are pleased to hold the Preamble proved and pass it, will bear reference not to the deposited plan which is now superseded, but in the usual form to the plan signed by the noble Chairman in the usual way, and made part of the Bill, and we shall be able to produce then from the Ordnance survey the official maps delimiting the frontiers in a final manner.

Now I have another confession to make and perhaps not unnaturally where we have had to deal with so many and so varied matters and interests, but I think it right to mention what is in one sense a relatively small matter. When we announced the introduction of our Bill into Parliament for the constitution of the Drainage Board we announced that the area would be shown upon our deposited plan, and the deposited plan in general outline still shows the areas with which we are concerned. That area so shown includes

a

small patch of the Administrative County of East Suffolk right away here upon the extreme right, Botesdale just about the very middle of the right-hand side. Now we announced that Our scheme was for a drainage district board on the area shown coloured, and we showed that area, and it embraces in East Suffolk the Administrative County of East Suffolk, 5,960 acres. Now by an error we did not include the Administrative County of East Suffolk among those who received notice. The error arose through the fact that the geographical County of Suffolk is one thing, and that there are two Administrative Counties in Suffolk, namely, the Fast and the West, and we had started off by treating it as the geographical County of Suffolk, and then, unfortunately, the letter W got in front of the Suffolk, and East Suffolk did not receive a specific notification applicable to this little corner here which comes in. We placed the matter before the Examiner, whose duty it is, of course, to see that Standing Orders are complied with, and the matter was explained to him, but he did not think it necessary to raise any question on the matter, and I am really mentioning it more to absolve my conscience lest anyone at a later stage should say there had been an irregularity in this matter. You understand now what has happened, and I do not think anyone can complain in those circumstances. The result is that

120 Julii, 1927.]

[Continued.

included in the area is that little bit of East Suffolk, that corner of East Suffolk, and notice has always been given by the map that it would be included, because there has never been an alteration there at all, but notice has not been given specifically to the East Suffolk Administrative County Council of this part of the proposal. I think it would be convenient, therefore, if we were to discard map A and work on map B, because B really shows the operative proposals of the Bill as they now stand.

Chairman.] Are they making any representation about it?

Mr. Macmillan.] No, there is no representation at all, and the Examiner has passed it, but it is right that it should be mentioned, my Lord.

Chairman.] They have been notified

now?

Mr. Macmillan.] No. they have not been notified. I do not know whether your Lordship would like any step taken. Chairman.] We will think it over and let you know.

Mr. Macmillan.] We shall of course do anything you think is proper, and if you think it right they shall be officially notified. I have given them very clear indication here and now of the matter, of course.

Now having got your areas geographically on the map, and having got your Boards constituted, as shown in the Schedule, then the next thing to consider is what are to be the powers of these Boards, and if my Lords will be good enough to turn to Clause 2 you will see what is there proposed as to the powers and jurisdiction of the new Drainage Board: "Subject to the provisions of this Act, all powers, duties and obligations which were immediately before the appointed day vested in or required to be performed by the Ouse Drainage Board constituted by the Order of 1920 "-that is the Order that failed of its effect-" shall by virtue of this Act "-now pray underline the next words-" so far as they relate to the main tidal channel of the River Ouse, ... be transferred to and become powers, duties and obligations of the Ouse Board "-that is to say, the new Ouse Board is to have all the powers which the old superseded Ouse Drainage Board had so far as they relate to the main tidal channel of the River Ouse, that is to say, the place where all these works are that I have been describing. The

function of the new Ouse Board is confined, not entirely but chiefly, to the works in the main tidal channel, and they are to succeed to the powers of their predecessors there. Then line 16: "and, so far as they relate to the South Level District, be transferred to and become powers, duties and obligations of the South Level Board: Provided that, notwithstanding anything in this or in any other Act (including any local Act) relating to the powers of drainage authorities of any particular drainage authority "here it is very important-" the Ouse Board shall not have power to maintain or construct any works other than works on the main tidal channel of the river and the South Level Board "-the yellow area Board"shall have no jurisdiction as respects the said channel." The function of these two Boards, therefore, is defined both negatively and positively. The concern of the main Board is to be the main tidal channel of the River Ouse, and the Ouse Board is not to have power to maintain or construct any works other than works upon the main tidal channel.

On the other hand, the South Level Board is excluded from any jurisdiction over those works and those functions which are confided to the main Board, the Ouse Board. It is a concentration of the main Board's energies upon the main tidal channel, these important works, the ultimate outlet works for the whole area. Then "The powers and duties of the South Level Board shall extend "-here it is described positively -" to all the channels specified in the Second Schedule to this Act." If you turn to page 37 you will see there a whole series of channels and rivers related to the orginal line of the Ouse in the vellow area, the old bend of the Ouse. They are all associated with that, and that is to be the sphere of activity of the South Level Board. Furthermore in order to clear up the position it was necessary to discard certain powers from the new Board which had been vested in the former Ouse Board. The Nar Valley is right away up at the top. There is a River Nar which comes into King's Lynn and it had its own Drainage Commissioners, and the existing Ouse Board, the 1920 Board I shall call it for identification, had powers in relation to the area of the Nar Valley. Now it is proposed to re-transfer those powers to the Nar Valley Commissioners, in short