12° Julii, 1927.]

existence, was that out of £110,000 due on rates £40,000 was still unpaid, so that the collection had only resulted in £70,000 being collected out of £110,4000 due, and it was exceedingly difficult to collect the arrears. The Board also was in this position, that it had an overdraft from the bank of £65,000 and the bank was pressing to have the position regularised, and the Board accordingly found itself in very serious difficulties indeed. They had not been able to carry out any extensive works, works which it was contemplated they would construct for the purpose of preserving the drainage system, and generally it was appreciated that the resulting position was becoming steadily unworkable. Consequently in 1923-I omit relatively unimportant matters-before matters had got quite so far as I explained they had got in 1925, a deputation from the Ouse Board waited upon Sir Robert Saunders, who was then the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, and put the position before him, and an amending Order was then framed with a view to relieving the situation. The proposal of that amending Order was to remove the Uplanders, that is to say, the people in the upper part of the river, from the Board's district, and to place them in separate areas under committees of their own. That was the general scheme of the amending Order, and it also proposed rates on annual value basis. the provisions of that Order an Inquiry was directed and eight days were spent at Cambridge in March and April, 1924, where the various contending forces once more marshalled their cohorts, and after eight days of acrimonious dispute it was discovered that there was no solution in the direction of that amending Order. Once inore the Board found itself in this position, that the proposed remedy was ineffectual. But there was one article of agreement among the warring hosts at Cambridge on this occasion, where all were cordially of one mind; it was that the Government should step in and aid the situation. Upon that there was complete unanimity, and upon that I think unanimity will be preserved even in this Committee. There may be dissatisfaction with the extent of the Government aid: there always is; but that "the Government should do something," in that sanctified phrase of the British citizen, everybody was clear. That measure of

Into

[Continued.

agreement at least emerged from this highly controversial inquiry.

Now the Government of the day recognised that the situation was one which legitimately called for Government assistance. It was perfectly plain that this process of infructuous contest could not be allowed to go on. It was perfectly plain that this large area of England must not be permitted to suffer through the inability of those who were on the spot to agree upon the necessary remedies, and that something had to be done from without became perfectly manifest. The proposal that the Government should aid was sympathetically received by the Government of the day and proposals were made by the Government to the Board. At this stage, my Lord, I think although it is to anticipate a little, I might draw your attention to a Report which was presented to Parliament having been made to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries by a Commission appointed by him in connection with the Ouse drain

age district. I shall explain its inception in a moment, but if you have it in your hand and will be good enough to use its contents you will be absolved from making notes upon a large part of my address and will really find in it recorded much of the historical matter which I have been setting out.

year.

Chairman.] The report of last year? Mr. Macmillan.] The report of last In the genesis of this matter, I think I may take the report itself where you will follow it conveniently. If you will be good enough to turn to page 7 of that report, article 16-the report will indeed, I think, throughout this inquiry be the Bible to which we shall all be referring-article 16 picks up the tale just at the point which I had reached: "The whole position was laid before the Minister of Agriculture in 1923 by a deputation representative of the Board as a whole, and, as the result of an undertaking then given by the Minister, an amending order was drafted, the main object of which was in effect to remove the Uplanders out of the Ouse district and to leave them in separate areas under their own committees. It provided also amongst other things for the levying of rates on an annual value basis only. This Order was the subject of an eight days' inquiry held at Cambridge by Mr. (now Sir Francis) Jones in March and April, 1924.

12° Julii, 1927.]

A large portion of the Inquiry was taken up with the statement of the divergent views of Uplanders and Fen dwellers. At the end of the Inquiry a suggestion was put forward with almost general support that no satisfactory solution of the difficulties which had prevailed Iwould be found in a mere amending Order, unless the Government were prepared to step in with a substantial contribution for the putting of the tidal channel of the Ouse in proper order." My Lords, I had brought the history down to that point, and I therefore pick it up here because the next series of negotiations will be found most conveniently enumerated in this Report on page 8 and page 9. "The proposal that is, that the Government should step in-" having been considered by the Government, the Ministry were authorised to make to the Ouse Drainage Board an offer of Government assistance towards the cost of works then estimated to be between £1,250,000 and £1,500,000 to be carried out in a period of 10 years, the idea being that the sum should in the first instance be found by the State and that two-thirds of it should be repaid during a period of 30 years by means of a flat rate levied throughout the whole of the Ouse Board's district except the Upland areas. This offer was made to the Ouse Drainage Board in July, 1924, and explained to a Committee of the Board by Mr. Jones. In the meantime further progress with the draft amending Order was of necessity suspended. (18) After negotiations lasting until January, 1925, the Committee decided to reject the offer and put forward the following counter proposals: (1) That the Ministry be informed that the existing liabilities and debts of the Fen area are so great that the Board is unable to accept the proposals of the Ministry, and suggest that the Ministry should undertake the improvement of the outfall below Lynn out of national funds."-that is the sea outfall-" (2) That in order to increase the area of cultivated lands which drain through Denver Sluice the Ministry be asked to make a grant of £100,000 to be expended in making and repairing the banks and cleansing rivers adjoining the inferior lands in sub-areas G.1 and D.1 "-these are areas in the south, green and blue-"and that the Government be asked to make a loan not exceeding £100,000 to the Board for further repairs of banks and dredging rivers in

[Continued.

the South Level area generally.' These proposals were laid before the Ministry by a deputation which urged that the Ouse drainage district was unable to bear a contribution towards such expenditure as was involved in the Government's previous proposals, and explained the serious financial position of the Board, their bankers having set a limit of £70,000 to the overdraft of approximately £65,000 already incurred, and that, of the two rates levied to date and designed to produce £110,000, about £40,000 still remain uncollected. (19) The Ministry, not being able to accept the suggestion of the Ouse Drainage Board, addressed a letter to them on the 29th January, 1925, containing the following proposals: -(1) That a small Commission should be appointed to investigate the whole problem of the River Ouse with a view to advising on certain points. (2) That in the meantime, with a view to some attempt being made to stabilise the position, the Board should at once present a petition for an amending Order for the temporary suspension (except in certain circumstances) of the rating of the Upland areas of the district and for limiting the carrying out of works in the Upland areas during the suspensory period. (3) That the Ministry should endeavour to obtain for the Ouse Drainage Board such immediate financial assistance as might be necessary to provide them with sufficient funds to carry on the work of the Board during the suspensory period. (20) These proposals were in due course accepted by the Ouse Board, and it was in pursuance of the first of them that the present Commission was appointed." Now I pause there for a moment. You observe the Government proposals were in three parts: First in all, the setting up of a Commission of Inquiry, secondly, a temporary relief for the impasse that had been reached by suspending the Ouse Drainage Order of 1920 so far as the rating of the Uplands was concerned, and, thirdly, immediate financial assistance. Each of those three things was done. A Commission was set up whose Report you have in your hands. An amending Order on the petition of the Board was brought forward proposing a suspension of the rating of the Upland districts until the matter could be in

quired into. That amending Order I need scarcely say was opposed and came before Parliament on the confirming Bill

12° Julii, 1927.]

-I have the proceedings here but was ultimately made. It was opposed in the House of Commons. The confirming Bill was opposed, but, however, it was made, and the result was a suspension of the rating of the Uplands for the time being. The first period of suspension I have here in the Order of 1925 and was till the 1st January, 1927. "No rate which is made under the principal Act or the principal Order after the commencement of this Order, and before the 1st day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven (which period is herein referred to the suspensory period') and no rate which is made after the expiration of the suspensory period so far as the same is made for defraying the expenses of the Drainage Board in respect of works executed during the suspensory period shall except as hereinafter proIvided be levied " on certain lands which I need not go into further. They are the Upland lands-" and this provision shall apply to rates for discharge of administrative and general expenses incurred by the Drainage Board during the suspensory period as well as rates for defraying expenses in respect of works," so that they were relieved from rating both for administration and other works. "During the suspensory period no works shall be executed by the Drainage Board under the principal Act or the principal Order (a) in Area A except with the consent " of So-and-So, practically their own consent, and similarly with other areas. So the whole thing was more or less, putting it colloquially, held up pending the advice of this Commission. Then it was necessary further to extend this period of suspension as the matter was not yet ripe for a Bill, and there was passed another Order which was confirmed by Parliament in 1926, substituting 1st January, 1928, for 1st January, 1927. Consequently, what I may call the suspension of rating of the Uplands under the Ouse Drainage Order of 1920 is now prolonged, and that suspension will continue until the first day of January, 1928, when, if something is not done under this present measure, the suspensory period will come to an end and the Ouse Drainage Order will revive in its general ope ation. Therefore it becomes of great materiality that something should be done before the suspensory period expires, because otherwise the last state will be worse than the first, and the Up

[Continued.

landers, having lost the benefit of their suspension, will be relegated back to the tender mercies of the original Order of 1920, from which they have had temporary relief pending investigation of the whole matter.

The other matter which the Minister undertook to do, the third matter, was temporary financial assistance. He gave that assistance in the form of guaranteeing the bank's overdraft up to £100,000 -from £75,000 to £100,000-and in that way assisted them temporarily, but that guarantee will also expire, I understand, on 31st August this year, so that the sands are running out, if one may use a metaphor appropriate to this Inquiry. They are running out there, but they are running into the Ouse.

Now, my Lords, the next and, of course, really the most important matter to bring under your notice is the Report of that Commission. The time had come when it was desirable to have this whole topic investigated, removed so far as it was possible to remove it from an atmosphere of local antagonism, and to obtain dispassionate and skilled advice on how this urgent problem should be dealt with. Consequently the Minister of the day under advice selected as the tribunal of inquiry Sir Horace Monro, late Permanent Secretary to the Local Government Board.

Mr. Riley.] May I ask whether such administration and work which is now going on is carried on entirely under the Government guarantee, that no rates have been levied?

Mr. Macmillan.] They have not exceeded the £70,000 overdraft up to date, therefore I gather they have not had to resort to the Government guarantee for their protection. They have been getting in some arrears of rates, and so on. They are living, I hope they will not resent my saying it, rather from hand to mouth on what they can get, but the main point is that they are really marking time just now and are not embarking on any work of any magnitude. They are no doubt patching here and there as is necessary, but they are not doing any work of any magnitude, and they are really in a state of suspension to that extent.

The reference was to Sir Horace Monro, late Permanent Secretary to the Local Government Board, a gentleman of great experience in these matters; Sir John Oakley, past President of the Surveyors' Institute; Mr. W. J. E. Binnie, the

12° Julii, 1927.]

Water Engineer, and Mr. Harvey, the Clerk to the Welland Drainage Board and other drainage authorities, who was selected because of his knowledge in those matters. To this Board was submitted this problem. They were to investigate the whole problem of the drainage connected with the River Ouse with a view to advising the Ministry on the following points." This is very important because it is very germane to the Inquiry which this Committee is conducting. They were "to investigate the whole problem of the drainage connected with the River Ouse with a view to advising the Ministry on the following points: (i) The nature and extent of the essential work required to put the Ouse drainage system in a proper state and the estimated cost thereof "; it was first really an engineering matter. It was recognised they were essential works and it was to be ascertained what was necessary to put the drainage system into a proper state and the cost. "(ii) The degree of benefit likely to be conferred on the various areas and sub-areas into which the Ouse Drainage District is at present divided " -that is under the algebraic system, as I may call it " by the execution of such works as are reported by the Commissioners to be so required. (iii) The ability of the several areas and sub-areas respectively to contribute to the cost of executing such works. (iv) The amount of Government financial assistance which would be essential to secure the execution of such works. (v) The amendments of the Ouse Drainage Order necessary or expedient for enabling the Ouse Drainage District to be drained effectually." It was, as you will appreciate, a very comprehensive remit. They were to consider the works necessary, the benefit those works would confer, the ability of persons affected to contribute, the amount of the Government aid that was requested, and then the formal matter of amending the Ouse Drainage Order in order that the district might be drained effectually.

The Committee, expert themselves, were assisted by a large number of witnesses who attended before them. They tell us on page 9 of their Report, article 21, that they "have inspected the existing channels and banks as far as they relate to the tidal river, the River Nar." The Nar comes in just there (same is indicated)-" the main tributaries constituting the drainage channels of the old South Level District

[Continued.

through Denver Sluice, the old Bedford and Delph Rivers, the Middle Level Main Drainage channels, and the Upper Ouse between Bedford and Brownshill Staunch. We have also visited the outfall into the Wash as far as Hull Sand Beacon, inspecting the existing training walls, the channel, and the various sandbanks which now obstruct the free discharge of the river, and have obtained samples of the water at various stages of the flood of a spring tide opposite West Bank Beacon, Hull Sand Beacon, and Whiting Beacon in order to determine the amount of silt in suspension carried by the water (22). We have also heard the evidence of the following engineers," but I shall not weary the Committee by going through the names, because the Committee will see at once they are names of men eminent and distinguished in their profession. "Technical evidence was also obtained from Captain Holmes, the Harbour Master at King's Lynn, and Mr. Gore, Works Manager for the Norfolk Estuary Company. They have considered proposals put before them-I shall not go into them at this stage-and then they proceed to recommend various works. They held meetings on no less than 22 days and they paid various visits, and you may read of their inquiries locally. So they were admirably furnished with material for consideration and equipped with all that was necessary to enable them to take an intelligent survey of the district, and to answer the questions that were put to them by the Minister.

One of the matters which I desire to emphasise at the very earliest moment is that this Commission put in the forefront of their Report the urgency of the matter. Twice in the course of their Report they impress upon the Minister that they have satisfied themselves that this is a matter which will brook no delay. May I refer to the two passages? It was perhaps an unfortunate phrase to talk of "brooking no delay because certain matters we know have brooked considerable delay. Page 15, article 45, is: "We are unanimously of opinion that the works above recommended are absolutely necessary to place the river and its tributaries in a satisfactory condition." I shall of course tell your Lordships later on what those works are, you will have ample information about that, but I want to place before you the impression which this Commission formed of the urgency of the whole matter.

"If

12° Julii, 1927.]

the work is not done, we are of opinion that inundation sooner or later is inevitable, and that the danger of the district returning to its original condition of swamp is very real. We are well aware that the estimates for these works amounts to a formidable total, and we should have been glad if we could have recommended a scheme which would not have involved so large an expenditure of money. But our own consideration of the problem and the engineering evidence which has been placed before us has convinced us that if this large and valuable tract of agricultural land is to be secured against inundation, improvements must be made to reduce the low water levels in the lower reaches, and enable the Upland flood waters to get away with greater facility, to prevent the accumulation of silt in the tidal channel and to put the banks in a permanent condition of stability. All the works which we recommend in the tidal river and in connection with the Washlands are directed to these ends. Each section of them is intimately connected with the rest, and we fear that it would be impossible to assume that any partial or less extensive scheme would effect the objects desired. The works recommended are of a permanent character, and when they are completed the cost of maintenance will be reduced to a nominal figure when compared with the present cost of upkeep.' "" Would my Lord now be good enough to turn to page 38, article 128, of the Report. "We cannot conclude this important chapter of our Report without saying how strongly we are impressed with the serious condition of the river. The immediate outfall into the sea is beset with sand banks, which are a menace to the shipping in the river and a great obstruction to drainage. The banks of the Marsh Cut are slipping, the toes in some instances have disappeared and large quantities of the bank will follow them into midstream and form a serious impediment to the waterway. The river from King's Lynn to Denver is in a much neglected condition. Above the bridge, when we inspected the river, we ran aground in various places owing to silt, and the banks were in a deplorable state. The Hundred Foot River has decreased from its original width in many places, and its banks between Welmore Lake Sluice and Denver Sluice impressed us very forcibly with their unstable condition (129). Consistent neglect of necessary works for many

[Continued.

decades is the cause of this unfortunate state of affairs, and we are one and all of opinion, and we give expression to it as a word of strenuous warning, that if the works recommended by us are not carried out, serious inundations will follow, and, in the absence of extraordinary effort and a very large expenditure of money, the whole fen area will return to primeval conditions.”

a

One's experience of Royal Commissions and Departmental Committees is that their Reports are generally couched in language of the most studied moderation and it is unusual, I think, to find report in which language so strong is used with regard to a situation which has been investigated. The Minister having received a report in these terms had, of course, naturally to address himself, and indeed SO had the Government, most seriously to the problem which their advisers had indicated, and that some measure must at once be put in hand was obvious or we might have a most serious state of matters supervene-not perhaps on the scale which has been experienced at New Orleans when the Mississippi has come down and inundated, but on a lesser scale, which we have in our more fortunate country, but none the less most serious. This, if I may say so, is really the text upon which the present proposals of the Bill are framed. The Commission dwelt with one and all of the various subject matters which were remitted to them, and made specific and definite suggestions upon each, and the Department of the Government, having taken into consideration the terms of that Report, have drafted a measure which I may say is based upon that Report, and except in matters not of any material importance, follows the recommendations throughout. The Bill is,

therefore, really the outcome of the advice which the Department has received in this Report, and we venture to think that we have done wisely in so framing the Bill. It is, of course, manifest that any measure proposed in the circumstances must be contentious. We have thought it best to proceed upon the terms of the Report, because we at least can feel that in putting forward a measure based upon that Report, on one can say that it is in any sense a partisan measure. It is a measure put forward by the Department on the expert advice which they have received-the best advice obtainable and, therefore, has the advantage of being a considered scheme;