community college helps take us back to the time where the faculty member learned from the student and the student learned from the faculty member. That is what the educational process necessarily is. It is not a case of a faculty member funneling knowledge into the head of a student, but rather it involves a very thrilling experience of faculty and student studying together.

I did not mean to give you my academic philosophy, but we had better start giving some consideration to this in these bills.

I am so glad that you raised this question of the junior colleges. We had better have a section in the higher education bill if they expect the Senator from Oregon to get very enthusiastic about it.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I am grateful that the chairman has taken time to give us some of his educational philosophy, because every single line of it, except the conclusion, supports my contention that it ought to be in this bill.

I want to say to the chairman that, as a coauthor of the original National Defense Act for 1958, when we heard this testimony day after day, and then had many executive meetings, where we wrought this bill out on the anvil of a judgment carefully arrived at-after days of deliberation, this language was put in, knowledgeably put in. It was fought over in the subcommittee, in the full committee, and then in conference with the House. The House did not agree. We fought for weeks to get this language in the bill, and I am not about to surrender on it now, and serve notice to the chairman that I intend to use every resource at my command, meager though they be, to try to retain this in the bill. I think it is a nebulous hope that maybe some other bill will have something for the junior colleges. I think they ought to be in both, because they are the poorest financed of all the three segments of public education.

I want to point this out, Mr. Chairman. In a junior college as such, and a community college-the community college is developed to its highest point in Delaware and Kentucky, but not through junior colleges. They have about that many years of work to be done at night, anytime. They train technicians, they train mechanics. A person who has finished no more than third grade of school can enter a community college. There are no rigid academic credits such as are required in the normal academic system of the grade school, the high school, the junior college, the senior college. It is to train people who otherwise lack proper education to hold these technical jobs, such as our evidence we received last year showed in Lancaster, Pa., one of the high unemployment areas of the country, there were 197 categories of jobs unfilled because people lacked technical training.

I think there is a distinction between the community college and the junior college.

Now, this language applies to a junior college in the ordinary public junior college academic sense of the word.

I would like to ask the Commissioner, Is it not correct that title III as drafted here and proposed goes no further than the 12th grade in the proposed bill?

Mr. FLYNT. Senator, may I add something further to this, to explain perhaps first to say that this suggestion does not represent any lack of concern on the part of the Office of Education in our Department for the junior college. May I say to the chairman we are equally

responsible for the higher educational legislation which will come before your committee shortly, and in which, may I say, full provision is made for the junior colleges in the form of a proposal that loans be made available for academic facilities. Junior colleges are eligible for college housing loans now.

The problem in this particular title-may I observe, Senator Yarborough, this is limited to application to sections 301 through 304 of title III, which was originally intended to aid secondary schools. The effect of the amendment which was included when the act was passed was to make it possible for junior colleges in 10 States to have aid, but in 40 States junior colleges get no aid.

Now, we simply feel that the main purpose of title III originally was to provide for the secondary school and to permit, in 10 States, funds to be channeled into junior colleges, means less money for secondary schools.

Now, this is a matter of equity. There are obviously other ways of correcting this. But this is our suggestion, as to a manner in which it is corrected.

I would hope you would not take this to mean we are not equally concerned with the problem of the junior college. It is just that our thought was that title III would

Senator YARBOROUGH. No, Dr. Flynt, I hope you will not misunderstand me. I did not challenge your concern for one moment. It is not a matter of concern. It is a matter of methods by which we reach these ends.

Would it not be merely a matter of definition in the laws for those 40 States to come under this if they wanted to. That is a matter of local and State definition, and they could qualify if they chose to change their definition.

Mr. FLYNT. If they chose to change the definition of secondary education, they could become eligible.

Senator YARBOROUGH. So this is an artificial exclusion to say these 10 come under it and the 40 do not. They come under it or not according to their local definition; do they not?

Mr. FLYNT. We do have a feeling, though, that the standards- the type of instruction in science in the postsecondary level is of very different characters and requires a different kind of standards in order to be administered under a different frame of reference. It would be much better in our judgment if this were treated as college-level subject matter.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Well, is it not a fact that the purpose of this section III was to develop the youth in the fields of science, mathematics, foreign languages, so that they would be able to make a contribution to the country in these areas as part of our defense effort? Is it not true that our experiences abroad have shown that we need further development, particularly in the fields of foreign languages and science and mathematics? Is it not a fact that that was one of the main purposes of this section 301 ?

Mr. FLYNT. Section 101-the purpose of the act so says.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Now, if we are giving that to strengthen the high schools, would it not be wise to continue that in the junior colleges, out of which so many of our schoolteachers come? I am talking about the community facilities--the college facilities bill, to build classrooms.

This is specialized aid, aid in certain subjects, where there has been a national lack and a national lag.

Now, would it not be wise to give this specialized aid to strengthen science, mathematics, and foreign languages in those junior colleges as well as in the high schools?

Mr. MCMURRIN. Perhaps we could recommend in keeping with this, Senator, that it be done for the first 2 years of 4-year colleges as well. There's a basic problem of a situation in equity there.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You would recommend generally?

Mr. MCMURRIN. I raise this question as to whether you feel this would be advisable.

Senator YARBOROUGH. If you recommend it, I would not oppose it. Senator MORSE. Senator Yarborough, have you finished for the moment?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes, sir.

Senator MORSE. Commissioner, when this bill was first introduced by Senator Hill in the 85th Congress, S. 3187, and the Senator and I were both cosponsors. It is interesting to note that title V, Scientific Facilities, covered both secondary schools and schools of higher education. Subsequently, the aid to higher education was dropped, and it was limited to secondary schools. That is a bit of the history.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes. There were many tragic changes. We had scholarships in there. On the floor of the Senate, by two or three votes, we lost most of them. In conference they were turned into loans. We had more generous writeoffs for those loans, where only 50 percent now can be written off. I regret the changes, Senator Morse. Our bill that we originally introduced was whittled away and whittled away until we got

Senator MORSE. Yes. We had part A, which consists of State educational agencies, and part B which consists of institutions of higher education. I speak not in a partisan spirit but factually when I say that the then administration insisted that the assistance to institutions of higher education be dropped from the bill. That was one of the compromises which had to be made up here on the Hill. Now it is a question of what we are going to do to see to it under this administration, in keeping, I think, with our clear pledges to give the protection to all the branches of higher education.

Now, I want to say to the Commissioner and Dr. Flynt, as an old mediator, I think we are in trouble at this point-not in trouble that cannot be resolved.

The Senator from Texas says what he said this morning about his intention to insist on the protection of junior colleges, and I would join him in that-but when he takes this position, we have a little problem of negotiation, I think, outside of this hearing room so that we can enter into discussion of the difficulties ahead prior to a final vote on this bill in the committee.

I want to say that unless I am satisfied that the junior colleges and community colleges are going to be clearly protected in the higher education bill, I am not going to go along, may I say to the Senator from Texas, in striking the junior colleges out.

We are not in the position this year that we were before, when we had to agree to drop title II of the bill in order to get any bill at all. But I say we are not in that position. We are at least in a position where we now have direct executive and legislative responsibility. As

far as this Senator is concerned, I am not going to agree to any compromises that were agreed to in the 2d session of the 85th Congress on the subject.

Senator YARBOROUGH. That is the reason, Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful where we had to recede on so many points before, that there will be no further recession. I am very much impressed by the Commissioner's suggestion that this be broadened to the first 2 years of all colleges.

Senator MORSE. Now, is the Senator from Texas ready to move on to the next witness?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more question?

Senator MORSE. Certainly.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Commissioner, I am certain you must have given this consideration. Did you mention the subject of furnishing libraries in the bill, the possibility of the inclusion of library equipment?

Mr. MCMURRIN. We have been giving very careful consideration to this, Senator. But libraries are not included.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Is there any other bill proposed by the Department to help these college libraries, particularly the smaller colleges?

Mr. FLYNT. Our proposals for loans for academic facilities, Senator Yarborough, would include loans for libraries.

Senator YARBOROUGH. For libraries?

Mr. FLYNT. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you.

Senator MORSE. I want to thank both of you gentlemen. I want to commend you for the service you are rendering in your Department. This is a very helpful statement. It will receive very careful consideration by this committee.

Mr. MCMURRIN. Thank you very kindly, sir.

Senator MORSE. We are honored to have as our next witness the distinguished Senator from Massachusetts, Senator Smith. I think it is particularly interesting as I quickly scan his testimony-that he is going to testify on the problem of the community college. Senator Smith, we are delighted to have you with us.

STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN A. SMITH II, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

Senator SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I consider it an honor and a privilege to be able to appear before you and the subcommittee this morning to testify on behalf of my bill, S. 1562, to benefit the public community colleges. Let me say at the outset that I certainly appreciate the chairman's words and especially his words on his high esteem for the C students, having been one myself.

The 390 public community colleges in the United States are the fastest growing segment of higher education. They are expanding rapidly to fill the educational gap between the complex demands of our electronic age and good but limited facilities already available in our educational system.

The community colleges give college-level education to thousand I of people whose interests and capabilities are not suitable for a 4-yea college, who cannot afford to go away to college, or whose require ments are not satisfied by a liberal arts program.

They do so at less expense to the students who live at home, and t the taxpayers who are saved the cost of expensive dormitories, sports arenas, and other facilities required at residential colleges.

Limitations in the National Defense Education Act, however, ha ve made it difficult for many of the public community colleges to make their fullest contribution to the country's educational needs. Under title III of the act, assistance is given in the teaching of science, mathematics, or modern foreign languages, to community colleges that are a part of the State secondary school system.

Under title VIII, assistance is provided for vocational education programs, provided that courses given are of less than college grade. This means that these courses cannot be counted as credit in transferring to a 4-year college if the student wants to pursue his or her education. Because of these limitations, some 120 public community colleges in 19 States serving approximately 135,000 students receive no support from the National Defense Education Act.

In the proposal made today by the Commissioner of Education, all community colleges would be taken out, as is done on page 7 of his proposed bill.

Now, these community colleges are in no way different from those now receiving the aid, except that they have been ruled by the attorneys general of their separate States to be institutions of higher education instead of extensions of the State secondary schools. They are ineligible for aid under title III, and will not ordinarily give courses of less than college grade to qualify under title VIII.

Educators and officials in these States feel that educational needs in their area can best be served by colleges of their level, and not by colleges that offer only 2 more years of secondary schooling. This is particularly important in the field of vocational education where the need for support is the heaviest.

Title VIII specifies that its funds are for the training of highly skilled technicians. Yet it states that the programs receiving these funds must be of less than college grade. Courses at that level may be suitable for preliminary training, but specialists who want an education in electronics, electricity, and other similar subjects that a skilled technician needs in modern industry must get training of at least college caliber. The same criteria holds true in the field of science, languages, and mathematics. The standards of education in all these fields are rising steadily, and the institutions of higher education are best equipped to fill the country's demands in those areas.

This bill will help these public community colleges by providing them with funds for the acquisition of equipment for instruction in those areas under titles III and VIII from which they are now excluded.

To participate, each State must match the fund which it receives from the Federal Government on an equal basis, set up machinery to administer the program, and submit plans for the expenditure of the funds to the Commissioner of Education. In Massachusetts this will affect, by 1971, 15,000 pupils. Our State now has 1,200 pupils en