No. XII.

THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS: PURGATORY.

SECOND CONVERSATION.

N*. Good day, James.

James. Good day, Sir.

N*. Well, James, I am come to continue our enquiries into the truth of Roman Catholic doctrines.

James. I am glad you are, Sir, and much obliged to you. Bill M. has been here since, and angry at my being so sure of the Bible being the word of God, and that I am so happy because I see that God has forgiven me, and that I have found salvation in Christ. He says I am turned fanatic, and that my head is turned, and what not. It tried me a little, but I know I am happy, and my wife helped me. And it was only what he had said to me before. And when I turned to Scripture, it came to me just with light and power; it was like another book to me; so I was not shaken really. If a man sees the sun, it is hard to persuade him he does not see it, though he can't explain to another how he comes to see it, only that God gave him eyes: but I should like to hear something more about the church, for that is what he always comes down upon. I expect he will be here to-night, and perhaps, if it is not too much to ask, you would have some conversation with him about it. My woman would be glad to hear, too, if you have no objection.

N*. Not the least; we will wait to speak of the church and authority till M. comes. I am glad he will be here, we can have our questions fully out. We will take, however, Roman Catholic doctrines from their own authoritative sources, which is still better. However, he

can recall any point I might forget, which will be an advantage. As to their arguments, I have Milner's "End of Controversy," which I know is distributed largely in cheap editions, so that I suppose we shall have the best arguments which they have to produce. Meanwhile there is a point I can touch on (for which we had not time the other day), I mean purgatory, because it is directly connected with the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice which gave you, through grace, such comfort the last time I saw you. The Romanists teach that there are two kinds of sins, mortal and venial. The first, they say, deprives the soul of sanctifying grace, that is, the grace that makes us friends of God, and deserves hell-venial sin does not deprive us of this. It does not, spiritually speaking, kill the soul, so their catechisms speak. The Council of Trent declares that the grace of justification is lost by mortal sin. Venial sin, however, according to the same authority, does not exclude from grace, but by mortal sins men are sons of wrath, and enemies of God. They say that if a man dies in mortal sin he goes to hell, but if he dies in venial sin he goes to purgatory; or if his mortal sin has been forgiven, and he is again justified by penance, he may go to purgatory to satisfy for the penalties that may remain after forgiveness.

James. What is purgatory?

N*. They are very shy indeed of saying what it is. Our friend, Dr. Milner says:-"all which is necessary to be believed on that subject is, there is a purgatory and the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and particularly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar." That is the same as the Council of Trent, only they anathematise any one who denies that, after men are freed from the eternal penalty of their sins, they have to satisfy in this world, or in purgatory, the temporal penalty to which they are liable for them. They do not tell us what it is, and forbid curious ques tions, only there is, they say, a place of temporary punishment. In the catechism of the Council of Trent it is called, however, the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of the just are cleansed by a temporary punish

ment.

Those who get in must stay there till they have paid the very last farthing, for so they apply that text; yet their friends can help them to get out by prayers,

It is singular enough the obscurity and inconsistency of the Catechism of the Council of Trent on this subject. In the article on the descent into hell, besides what I have just quoted, after speaking of purgatory, it is said: "The third kind of abode is that in which were received the souls of the just who died before Christ, and where, without experiencing any kind of pain, supported by the blessed hope of redemption, they enjoyed peaceful repose. These pious souls then, who in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord liberated, descending into hell." (Vol. i, p. 123, III.) Shortly after, in the same article, it is said, speaking of the descent of the just: "They all descended, some to endure the most acute torments; others, though exempt from actual pain, yet deprived of the vision of God, and of the glory for which they sighed, and consigned to the torture of suspense in painful captivity." Is being consigned to the torture of suspense in painful captivity peaceful repose in the bosom of Abraham? Were the holy and the just held in painful captivity in the bosom of Abraham? Is that the picture which Scripture gives of it? The fire of purgatory is the second thing. Limbus patrum is the third kind of abode, where there was no pain, but peaceful repose. Yet some were there to endure the most acute torments. In a further passage it is said: "And the souls of the just, on their departure from this life, were borne to the bosom of Abraham; or, as is still the case with those who require to be freed from the stains of sin, or die indebted to the divine justice, were purified in the fire of purgatory " (p. 127, II.) Hence the souls of the just who were enjoying peaceful repose in the torture of suspense must have been perfect souls. The others were in the fire of purgatory as people are now. The Jews' belief is that Abraham descended from time to time to deliver souls. Bellarmine insists that it is a material fire,-a strange thing for souls to suffer from. But what is more important, he declares that the element of sin (the fomes peccati) is gone by death, because sensuality is extinguished; habits, not. But they must soon be gone too, nay, at once, though that is not the case in this life, because there will there be no contrary and resisting element as there is here,nor is purgatory for these habits, as adults who die directly after baptism, and martyrs do not go there. Yet neither baptism nor martyrdom destroys them. After reasoning thus, and saying purgatory was for none of these, he adds:-"There remains, therefore, the penalties of guilt and venial sins-which may properly be called the remains of sins, on account of which purgatory is. But these remains, it is sometimes certain, are purged in death: sometimes it is certain they are not purged, sometimes it is

alms, and particularly by the so-called sacrifice of the mass. Now all this you can easily see (however little clear it may be) goes clean against the whole testimony of God as to the forgiveness of sins. They ground it in their reasonings on the impossibility of a soul suffering for a small sin as it would for murder. They put a person under vindictive temporal punishment, which does not purify, but satisfies God. They are always labouring to get people out; indulgences are used to spare people part of this temporal punishment due to sin, as they say, but " no one can ever be sure that he has gained the entire benefit of an indulgence, though he has performed all the conditions appointed for this end." How different is Scripture. God does chasten for sin with a view to our holiness, even when we are

doubtful which happens, and it is most probable they are partly purged and partly not purged." Vol. ii., Bellarm. De Purg. Lib. ii. cap. ix., 7 (p. 370): "Restat ergo reatus pœnæ, et peccata venialia, quæ propriè dici possunt reliquiæ peccatorum, ob quas est Purgatorium. Has autem reliquias aliquando certum est in morte purgari aliquando certum est non purgari aliquando dubium est, quid fiat, et probabilissimum est, partim purgari, partim non purgari;" and preceding and following sections. I cite this because it is thus clear from the highest authority of the Roman Catholic church that it is not inward spiritual purifying, for sensuality is extinguished by death, not even habits, but the penalty of guilt and venial sin. It is strictly penal and satisfactory; and secondly, it is exactly for that ("the remains of sin," which extreme unction takes away) that men go into purgatory; which is noticed farther on. The pains of purgatory, says Bellarmine, are most horrible (atrocissimas). It cannot be said how long they last; they may diminish gradually. This he proves by visions. He enlarges upon the proofs of the horrible pains compared with anything here. In result, for the slightest faults (if Pope Gregory the Great is to be believed), and with no view to purify from lust or sensuality (for that is extinguished), justified holy souls in a state of grace are kept in torment as a mere penal satisfaction.

One catechism defines it "a place of punishment where souls suffer for a time, before they go to heaven;" but the Council of Trent and the creed of Pope Pius give us no help here.

b Milner's "End of Con." Letter xlii. On Indulgences, "of what it really is," (sec. iv. of second par. of Letter xlii.). ́ Bellarm. De Indulg. Lib. i. cap. 12.

perfectly forgiven-He, for our profit (it is said), that we may be partakers of His holiness. That, the heart assured of His goodness can easily believe, and bless Him for it. He speaks to us (as it is beautifully said) as unto children: "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him." It is also true that God governs and shows sometimes His displeasure against sin in this world. And He has so ordered the world that he that sows to the flesh of the flesh reaps corruption;—but a vindictive penalty-when a man is not in the flesh at all, as to which God can be satisfied by the man's sufferings in this or another world, or by his friends' offerings with which no purifying is connected, but which serve merely to buy him off from God's hand, who will not let him go till the last farthing is paid, is a horrible blasphemy against the truth and grace of God. The Scriptures do not teach us thus. What should you say, James, to the thought that, after God had forgiven you, and declared that He would remember your sins and iniquities no more, God was going to put you into the fire or some other horrible pain, till you paid Him the last farthing of these temporal penalties?

James. I never could think that.

N*. No one who knows God's truth could, James. It revolts every thought that God has given to us of His grace and of Himself.

James. But, then, what do you say to the murderer not being punished more than one who had committed a small fault?

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N*. I say that if they turn to God through Christ, they are both washed clean, as white as snow, even if the sin was as scarlet. The whole argument, James, denies Christian truth. No person renewed in heart will any fault small which comes from the carnal mind, which is enmity against God. We know that if we are not redeemed and justified and born again, we are all children of wrath; that if we are, though we may be chastened for our profit, God imputes to us no sin at all, as Paul says, Rom. iv., "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth no sin," quoting Psalm xxxii., because Christ has, for those who by grace are in Him, borne

VOL. II. New Series. 14